Microtuning in DP ?

[cuttime]

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[Larry Mal]

Oh, sorry. I couldn't open the files you had posted in anything.

What I understand from the Isacoff book that I have linked above, microtunings are pretty much the "standard", if you will. The way that musical notes and the overtones vibrate allows for perfect tuning, however, not in all "keys". Thus, an "A" will also have perfect overtones of "E", and so forth. But the other notes possible in the scale get a little mathematically unwieldy, as well as the chords built on them.

This wasn't a problem with folk ensembles, or voice, since most of those instruments can accommodate tuning to a particular key on the fly. The dawn of the piano, however, as a compositional and performance instrument, changed that (and other hard to tune instruments such as the harpsichord before it didn't help).

This is why piano tuners (and one is posting on this thread) sharpen some notes and flatten others by a few cents in order to have what the ear perceives, more or less, as OK tuning in all keys, although that really isn't possible- take a guitar and play the chromatic scale and see, you can be perfectly in tune in some keys, but not others, and if you change to be in tune with the others, then you're out of tune from where you started.

And microtunings are well understood in Western music, or rather, they were. There was a time when B# and C flat would have been tuned to by smaller ensembles- as best they could have, anyway. Violins can handle that sort of thing, if the performer can- and a lot of "fretted" instruments of antiquity, such as some lutes, had gut frets that could be moved around to accommodate the difference- the sitar to this day has moveable "frets", and does allow for microtuning (so I've been told- I'm actually not a master of the sitar).

Anyway, don't pay too much attention to me, I'm quoting what I've read, the Stuart Isacoff book above is where it started for me. But either way, once you understand how sound vibrates, and how most overtones happen, then microtuning ceases to be seen as some incomprehensible thing.

[Larry Mal]

I'm trying to find a picture of a very old keyboard instrument in which there were separate keys for the accidentals- G# and A flat would have been keyed differently. It never caught on, as I understand it. I'll keep looking- if anybody here knows of it, that would be great.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I've seen a lot of historical instruments including a Cristofori piano at the Museum of Modern Art in NYC (which I got to gently play a few notes on). I've never seen any keyboard with extra keys. But I did find an interesting history of keyboards some might find interesting.

http://www.uk-piano.org/history/history_1.html

[Larry Mal]

This isn't what I've seen, but the authors of this do mention the possibilities of tuning on page 4, with a visual of the keyboard layout on page 5:

http://www.spectralmusic.com/sotorrioke ... yboard.htm

But again, what I'd seen was an 18th century (I think, it's been years) prototype of a piano in which there were two black keys between the white ones, which correspond to G# and A flat. I forget if they were side by side or staggered somewhat. I have it in a book somewhere, I'll try to find it and scan it.

The advantage would be that each scale would be tuned perfectly to itself, rather than now, when most scales are off by a few cents at places either sharp or flat.

But obviously, 1) outside of a few academics, no one is exactly complaining and 2) none of this is helping the original poster to use alternate tunings in Digital Performer, I'm just going off topic for "fun".

[daniel.sneed]

When we are at it :

Anyone hear about the *Scala* files used in GPO Aria VI ?
This is the VI coming bundled with the Akai EWIusb.

I only play the default one, which is tempered.

I would like to understand a little more.
Specially experiment with tempered scale, but upper octaves a little sharp, and lower octaves a little flat. I'm sure it would *fit* more to my ears.

I guess it's possible, but can't understand anything about these numerous, and mysterious, *Scala* files.

Any info and help appreciated.

[cuttime]

When we are at it :

Anyone hear about the *Scala* files used in GPO Aria VI ?
This is the VI coming bundled with the Akai EWIusb.

The .tun files I posted earlier are conversions of the .scl files found on the Scala website:

http://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/

I've been intrigued with the possibilities, but admit that I am overwhelmed by the technical demands of the software. I did not do the conversions myself, but found them on the KVR website. Looking at the files, they seem to be easily edited text files that were created by some scripting process.

[James Steele]

Sorry, the Nation here chopped off part of the screenshot. If this confuses anyone, send me a PM and I'll email you the screenshots yourself, but then again, it's not as if the Logic PDF isn't on the web. After all, unlike DP, it doesn't come printed with version 9.

The board now has a fixed width as far as pixels go. I can expand it but I don't think I can make it dynamic. It's a third party scheme and that sort of thing is too complex for me at this point. As I said I could make it wider, but it would be a fixed width and I'm concerned about people who may access this forum from laptops that still have a 1024x768 screen resolution.

[Shooshie]

Logic's tunings apply to one or more of it's VI's. MIDI does not support those tunings directly, so a DAW has no need of microtunings to send out to 3rd party instruments. There is a Continuous Controller for detuning, but it does not set temperaments and microtunings. Various MIDI instruments do support microtunings and temperaments, but if they support changing them via MIDI, then that's just a Continuous Controller application.

Many of our VI's support microtunings. It just depends on the VI. The fact that Logic includes temperament and microtuning support for one or more of its VI's is indeed an interesting approach for a DAW. It gives some or all of its VI's an incredible number of tuning options. It's the "Hermode Tuning" in Logic that is pretty amazing and apparently attempts to do what advanced performers do -- temper as you play, based on an analysis of the intervals and polyphony of the moment.

Let me interject here that wind, brass, and string players use a mix of temperaments if they are advanced enough to be in complete control of their pitch. When playing with a piano, for instance, I can flat my 3rds or stretch my fifths if the piano is not doubling me. But generally, I play equal temperament with piano, and other temperaments with ensembles of instruments with variable pitch. To some degree, I can do this on my WX5 MIDI Wind Controller. For reasons that aren't worth the paragraphs it would take to explain, this sometimes requires some manual editing later, but it's a global sort of thing.

So, for Logic to do this, it's got to be using a sophisticated algorithm to determine the pitches it will play. I hope it's more sophisticated than the manual. The manual says that the true interval of a major 3rd must be raised 14 cents from equal temp, when in fact it must be lowered that amount. And I would say 13 cents. I'm not guessing; I know these pitches like the back of my hand. The manual just got it wrong.

If Hermode Tuning can be applied various 3rd party MIDI instruments, then that would be quite an accomplishment. I don't see how it would work, since as we already discussed, MIDI does not include support for tempering and tuning the pitch on that level. It could calculate pitch bend, but PB affects all notes. There's no provision in Pitch Bend for bending a single note in a chord.

So, I will assume that what Logic does is for its own instruments only, unless 3rd parties are starting to support "Hermode Tuning."

Meanwhile, many instruments include temperaments. Akoustik Piano, for example, has a wide variety of temperaments, including quarter tone scales. Many MIDI instruments can be tuned for such scales, but it does not change anything that the DAW can see. I don't think that Logic would have any more control over my Kurzweil 2600 than Digital Performer or Pro Tools would have.

This falls in that category of interesting features that are of dubious value in a DAW. Undeniably, if you can find a use for it, then it's good for you. But unless all instrument makers establish some guidelines and stick to them, it wouldn't do much more than tune the VI's that come with Logic. If all makers agreed to such a guideline, then I imagine we'd see it implemented in many DAWs. Until then, I'm just fine with the tuning options found in most VI's, at least most keyboard VI's. Monophonic Instrumentals can be "tempered" with pitch bend, especially with MIDI Wind Controllers. And I have very little use for piano tuned in any way except Equal Temperament, or with Stretched Octaves.

Shooshie

[BKK-OZ]

Thanx Shooshie for bringing us back OT, and for that cogent explanation of MIDI-VI's-tunings.

[James Steele]

Gadzooks, Shoosh! That made my brain hurt. I'm just a guitar player... I tune it up and go, although I get the fact that tuning can be off depending on the key when using equal temperment. I know there's a retrofitted system for guitars called the Buzz Feiten system that's supposed to correct some tuning issues intrinsic to guitar. All very interesting.

Speaking of tuners, I just endorsed this one: http://bit.ly/565e4y

[daniel.sneed]

At this point I'd like to put in a plug for my favorite free plug, Automat. Put .tun files in user/Library/Presets/alphakanal/Automat1/tunings.
Here are some to get you started:
http://www.box.net/shared/6flif1bsnb
Have fun. Gets one out of musical ruts.

Thanks for posting, Cuttime.
The .tun files are as *numerous* as the scala files. And I don't get a word about them, yet.
Any thought on which files can provide some basic "Stretched Octaves", as Shooshie calls them ?

[Shooshie]

Ivory and Akoustik Piano can do stretched octaves. Just about any piano VI will include this. Stretched octaves are more popular for solo work. Equal Temperament blends better.

Shoosh

[daniel.sneed]

Ivory and Akoustik Piano can do stretched octaves. Just about any piano VI will include this. Stretched octaves are more popular for solo work. Equal Temperament blends better.Shoosh

Thanks Shooshie.
My needs are when playing solo large octave jumps on a wind VI.
When the VI is set to a default tempered tunning, that is to say *not-stretched*, my ears feel very uncomfortable.
I guess Scala files should be the right answer.