advice on analyzing my own songs

[MIDI Life Crisis]

... and as Frodo's earlier post clearly demonstrate; always take the repeats!

[Frodo]

I always wonder how many people really get it that "Commencement" refers to a beginning and not to an end. The three Ls--Life-Long-Learning.

Very interesting. I love words:

commence: v. to start, to begin

graduate: v. to move on, to advance, to proceed

Why was called "graduation" in high school and "commencement" in college? What a wake-up call to realize that after 8 years of school one had only started!

[cuttime]

Well, I'm sure you guys scared the original poster off. Way off. But that's okay, I'm sure that your advice was way too much trouble for him to fathom, much less execute. That poster reminds me of someone that I work with, who fancies himself a musician, who spends an enormous amount of money on gear, who complains that "I'm just not making the progress that I want!". I decided to take that person under my wing, and spent a lot of time with him, making copies of free plug-ins and software for his use. I'd send him links on a daily basis. I'd ask to hear his mp3s. Every month or so I'd ask what he thought of my input, and the reply I'd get was "All that stuff is still sitting in my Inbox, I haven't really checked it out, yet."

Believe me, I know better. I am not a professional music teacher, and I thought I would just provide assistance to a friend who needed guidance. Maybe I even envied some of his gear, and wanted some playtime myself. I guess I thought that musical genius, or talent, or maybe interest was something that I was morally obligated to nurture. Maybe I have an exaggerated notion of my own musical knowledge. Whatever, when one starts to expend more energy on a target than what is achieved in return, cut it off and find something else.

You professional educators probably have a different take on all this. I'm sure you have to deal with indifference every day. The paycheck always helps, but still, there is some reason that you went into education to begin with.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Actually indifference is the main reason I got *out* of education. Indifference of other 'educators'.

[twistedtom]

A long time ago in a place far far away, I moved next to some one that thought they were a drummer. I heard him play and went oh my god this cannot be. Then a friend who was a drummer for real and who was helping me move heard the want a be drummer banging away. My friend bolted out of the door and went next door to tell my neighbor that he needed some help. He showed him a few things and after that I tried to teach him some basics like counting. For some time he would say “why do I need this stuff I just feel it” I told him “because I have to hear you”. Finally he started taking lessons and went to school and today he is both a good drummer and a close friend.

To the original poster the answers to why do I need this stuff is; do you want to be able to play with other people or create more than one track to your music?

[cuttime]

Finally he started taking lessons and went to school and today he is both a good drummer and a close friend.

I'm glad there are some success stories.

[dpart]

Ah the OP returns! Not scared off by the discussion as someone suggested, but stopped because nothing useful was being offered. However this comment (below) and others bring me back because they are off the mark. Without making it a huge post I'll summarize:

After an initial reply/input by Frodo - which was quite honestly the only useful advice given, the discussion morphed into the OP being someone who didn't want to learn theory, or was somehow dismissive of theory, and whether theory was needed anyway, or was like someone they knew, blah blah blah ....

So let me state this: Nonsense. I am perfectly aware that knowledge/theory/deep understanding is almost always helpful. Wish I had had a formal music education, like some of you have had. Probably my single biggest wish in the music arena. But I am at the stage where I am at, and I can only pick up this and that.

The fallacy in many of the "advice" received is saying "learn the theory, man, you can't get away from that".

Yah. But WHAT theory? Frodo pointed out practical steps, and identified what one should pursue (not in general theoretical terms, but it was straightforward as to where to go. The rest of you ... : )

"Theory" in music is just "practice", not like in physics. If I succeed, my music will be emulated and become part of theory. "Succeed" is (either or both) "commercially" ie. a lot of people listen to it (not just $$), and critical acclaim - a lot of thinking & knowledgeable people find interesting things in it.

So if you are going to point to "theory" then specify which part of what theory (chapter and verse). Example: If I want to do wiring in the house there is no point in sending me to read "electrodynamics" theory, when the theory I need is Black and Decker's home wiring. (Yah someone will now quibble that the latter is a practical text. See definition of music theory above)

The questions I asked in the OP were:

1. Given a loosey-goosey just-written song, how to analyze it, and whether DP could help. I believe, given the combination of Frodo, my own tinkering and, yes theory, I can come up with an answer. If I get around to writing it down, I'll post it.

2. The second question was very real and for all the blather that followed there was no answer given, because most you don't know (I believe some people do know e.g. Frodo, some others do know but won't share - how they make a living etc, perfectly understandable - e.g. MLC, but then why are you non-answering??).

The question is whether given a rhythm as defined by a non-MIDI rhythm guitar can be (preferably automatically, but ok if by hand) accompanied by a drum line, such that it augments and otherwise adds interest to the rhythm. More specifically, how to emphasize the existing rhythm, while adding to it but not subtracting musically. This is no doubt a deep question, but not bizarre, and I'm sure we will see a practical automatic tool developed and for sale sometime. Its a legitimate question and must have steps that one can take. So if you can contribute in this forum or even give pointers, great. Answer if you can, but please no unusable philosophy.

Sorry about the impatient tone of this post, and even the disses. But I'm like some guy you once knew who collects gear and leaves advice unopened???? Homer - Mozart??? Why not just answer "OM" that should cover all Q&As.

But I can't leave this post without repeating my statement of being appreciative to one an all. Because I am. Don't be offended by this post, thats not my intention. I am a newbie, just not that much of a newbie!

A long time ago in a place far far away, I moved next to some one that thought they were a drummer. I heard him play and went oh my god this cannot be. Then a friend who was a drummer for real and who was helping me move heard the want a be drummer banging away. My friend bolted out of the door and went next door to tell my neighbor that he needed some help. He showed him a few things and after that I tried to teach him some basics like counting. For some time he would say “why do I need this stuff I just feel it” I told him “because I have to hear you”. Finally he started taking lessons and went to school and today he is both a good drummer and a close friend.

To the original poster the answers to why do I need this stuff is; do you want to be able to play with other people or create more than one track to your music?

[FMiguelez]

Not scared off by the discussion as someone suggested, but stopped because nothing useful was being offered...

So let me state this: Nonsense.

I don't get it. First you ask for advice in a public forum. You get it, and yet you call it "nonsense"?

Sorry if you didn't like what you heard. There are some things in music that just CAN NOT be taught and CAN NOT be learned by just anyone. There MUST be some pre-existing talent. Your knowledge may be basic or advanced, but successful musicians share an important characteristic: MUSIC INTELLIGENCE.

The question is whether given a rhythm as defined by a non-MIDI rhythm guitar can be (preferably automatically, but ok if by hand) accompanied by a drum line, such that it augments and otherwise adds interest to the rhythm. More specifically, how to emphasize the existing rhythm, while adding to it but not subtracting musically. This is no doubt a deep question, but not bizarre, and I'm sure we will see a practical automatic tool developed and for sale sometime. Its a legitimate question and must have steps that one can take.

The steps you can take are investing in years of practice, study and experimentation.

If you are looking for "automatic" settings and a robot that creates music when you press a button, try Garage Band instead. If you want to create original meaningful music, you must know what you are doing and put the effort into it. It has taken a lot of us YEARS of hard study and practice to make a living by doing music. It pretty much sounds as a joke the fact that you want instant results....

How to "emphasize an existing guitar rhythm without subtracting musically" is pretty subjective, don't you think? There is something that DOES NOT EXIST in music: formulas. There are none. What works in one scenario will suck in the next one. THIS is where talent and musically-intelligent decisions must be made.

Sorry if this all sounds harsh. I'm just giving you a reality check. NOT JUST ANYONE can do music. NO. If you want to try, expect to spend countless hours refining the art. If your music is good it will show. Same otherwise.

[FMiguelez]

.

So if you are going to point to "theory" then specify which part of what theory (chapter and verse).

ALL of it. It kind of takes you from step A to B. It starts simple and becomes more involved. What "point" in theory is hard to know without knowing exactly how much or how little you already know.

I gave a couple of GREAT links up-thread. Have you checked them out? The music theory book I recommended starts at the beginning... pretty basic stuff. From there, you start exploring more and more. Doing it like this has the advantage in understanding music development through history, not only music. You start understanding the "why's".

There are like a zillion books out there. Do you want to do orchestral music? Pop music? Rock music? Music theory is obviously less needed for the last two cases, though. If that's what you want, check the Berklee Press books. They have all kind of Commercial Arranging books.
But even then, you will have to learn to write for rhythm and horn sections. Voicings, harmony (pretty advanced), counterpoint, etc.

[Frodo]

After an initial reply/input by Frodo - which was quite honestly the only useful advice given, the discussion morphed into the OP being someone who didn't want to learn theory, or was somehow dismissive of theory, and whether theory was needed anyway, or was like someone they knew, blah blah blah ....

Hey dpart:

In your OP, you said the following:

Also, I don't need answers like (since I know these!) - "get a music teacher" (they want to teach me music theory, not how to do what I need done,) just grind it out (this is what I do currently), "feel" it and "if it sounds good, its right."

Basically, that short-circuits the solution from two different angles: the analytical and the visceral. If you're already grinding it out, then don't underrate that aspect. I've found that about 60-70% of the way I work is entirely visceral. Ideas will just come to me out of the blue and I'll either write them down or put them into DP without regard to its structure or form. Once it's hammered out in rough terms I'll look at the construction and begin finessing what's there.

The fallacy in many of the "advice" received is saying "learn the theory, man, you can't get away from that".

Yah. But WHAT theory? Frodo pointed out practical steps, and identified what one should pursue (not in general theoretical terms, but it was straightforward as to where to go. ...

"Theory" in music is just "practice", not like in physics. If I succeed, my music will be emulated and become part of theory. "Succeed" is (either or both) "commercially" ie. a lot of people listen to it (not just $$), and critical acclaim - a lot of thinking & knowledgeable people find interesting things in it.

I have to disagree somewhat. Sure, it's always easy to go back to analyze something after the fact, but music theory is itself a given set of rules (a lot like physics and even akin to the theorems and postulates in geometry).

DP was constructed using the basic rules of music theory. How the Conductor Track relates to the Tracks Overview and how both relate to the Quick Scribe window are important extensions to the theory of music. To understand where a "quarter-note" fits into and works inside DP is itself to understand a part of music theory.

It's difficult to verbalize how music works-- how that guitar part might fit with a drum part-- without using terms borrowed from music theory. I could tell you that a snare drum generally plays on the second and fourth beats in a measure containing 4 beats, but that would be meaningless without a basic understanding of music theory which sets the rules for how rhythm is organized and, to some degree, notated. If one is to understand the Graphic Editor, those same theoretical concepts of music really do come in handy.

So if you are going to point to "theory" then specify which part of what theory (chapter and verse). Example: If I want to do wiring in the house there is no point in sending me to read "electrodynamics" theory, when the theory I need is Black and Decker's home wiring. (Yah someone will now quibble that the latter is a practical text. See definition of music theory above)

Here's a good place to start. There are specifics on the theory of rhythm which are critical to understanding how DP is set up to work:

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Music_Theory/Rhythm

You'll find those same note values when setting a tempo or a meter in the Conductor Track.

The questions I asked in the OP were:

1. Given a loosey-goosey just-written song, how to analyze it, and whether DP could help. I believe, given the combination of Frodo, my own tinkering and, yes theory, I can come up with an answer. If I get around to writing it down, I'll post it.

DP can help first and foremost by serving as a listening medium. That alone brings a great deal of objectivity to the table when having a band or an orchestra playing it back for you is simply impractical.

Using markers to delineate where the intro begins, where all the verses of a song are, where all the choruses of the song are is the first step to analyzing what you've written. A gander at the Markers window will reveal much in the way of how your song is constructed.

But there's another element to this: what is it exactly that you want to analyze? Is it rhythm? Is it chord structure? Is it form? Is it melody? Is it some combo of these? How and why do you want to analyze it? Do you want to make sheet music so that other people can play it? Do you just want to understand what you wrote?

The answer to all of these will answer your question of "what theory". Even without formal study of music theory, just delving into these questions *is* music theory by definition.

The other thing I wanted to mention is that it's difficult to talk about how to create a drum part to go with the guitar without hearing the tune or musical fragment. Is the song slow? Is it fast? Is the guitar part done on an acoustic guitar? On an electric guitar? Is it rock? Is it folk? Is it R&B? What you write hinges greatly on having these questions answered.

I still think it's important and even more edifying if there were someone who uses DP who'd be willing to show you some basics of how they'd go about building an arrangement.

2. The second question was very real and for all the blather that followed there was no answer given, because most you don't know (I believe some people do know e.g. Frodo, some others do know but won't share - how they make a living etc, perfectly understandable - e.g. MLC, but then why are you non-answering??).

Forums, avatars, and usernames do well to level the playing field between vets and newbies. Sometimes when people state what they do for a living it can come across as "bragging" and that can actually leave a negative impression on some people.

I make my living as a musician: as a pianist, as a conductor, and as a composer/orchestrator. Most of my work is orchestral, but not all of my work is classical, per se. I dabble in all sorts of music either out of necessity or for the fun of it. I also play the guitar largely because I'm a huge fan of The Beatles and Hendrix. Sheer curiosity is responsible for why I get pulled into so many different styles of music. I'm not a believer in doing just one thing because life itself is so much greater and more exciting than that.

The question is whether given a rhythm as defined by a non-MIDI rhythm guitar can be (preferably automatically, but ok if by hand) accompanied by a drum line, such that it augments and otherwise adds interest to the rhythm. More specifically, how to emphasize the existing rhythm, while adding to it but not subtracting musically. This is no doubt a deep question, but not bizarre, and I'm sure we will see a practical automatic tool developed and for sale sometime. Its a legitimate question and must have steps that one can take. So if you can contribute in this forum or even give pointers, great. Answer if you can, but please no unusable philosophy.

Again, it's hard to describe this without having some idea of what type of guitar part we're working with but, here goes:

. whether given a rhythm as defined by a non-MIDI rhythm guitar can be (preferably automatically, but ok if by hand) accompanied by a drum line, such that it augments and otherwise adds interest to the rhythm.

Yes. In DP, you want to lock the guitar audio track to DP using the Adjust Beats feature. This will make DP follow the track instead of forcing the track to follow DP. If you want to experiment with creating drum parts automatically, I would again advise collecting drum loops. These are collections of drum patterns that you can fly in or erase as desired. They are ready to use and are as close to the automatic approach as you can get. You try a few until you find one or several ones you like that work with your guitar part. They come in two varieties:

MIDI-- just the notes-- these are to be assigned to a VI or MIDI instrument of your choice.

Audio-- these are as described: audio files in snippets. Fly in enough of them and you can build your song. They are harder to edit than MIDI loops, but you'll have sound a whole lot faster.

Drum loops do not solve the whole problem, though. It is also possible that something you want to hear just doesn't exist. Drum loops (in MIDI format) can be edited and sculpted to fit, but sometimes you will have to do a few things by hand.

how to emphasize the existing rhythm, while adding to it but not subtracting musically. This is no doubt a deep question, but not bizarre, and I'm sure we will see a practical automatic tool developed and for sale sometime.

Again, you're asking a question about creativity but seek a certain amount of automation. The two don't always compliment each other. It's also hard to talk about this in specific terms without having something specific to listen to, so the discussion is destined to be somewhat general or even philosophical by default.

Garage Band is a good example of a quick and easy DAW. It's compatible with Apple Loops which you just drag into place and hit play. To that extent, the automation is already available. However, as mentioned above the results may or may not appeal to you if you have specific ideas of what you want to hear.

The key is to do a lot of listening. Find tracks with guitar and drums that you like-- ones that are similar to the tune you're working on just to have a better understanding of how guitar and drums could work together. Because people are different, each example will be different. There's no one right way to do it.

Without knowing the guitar part you're working with, here are some good examples of a guitar part and a drum part complimenting each other nicely. If the songs don't appeal to you, I beg your forgiveness-- just grasping at straws.

Michael Jackson- "Beat It", "Black or White"
Beatles- "Day Tripper", "Ticket To Ride", "Birthday"

The list could be endless. But the best way to understand it is to replicate it. From there you will know how to do it, and then you can make the necessary adjustments in an effort to be original, to find your own "voice", and to more clearly define your own M.O.

[Phil O]

...Please don't fear the theory. You don't need to spend years studying composing and arranging. A good teacher could get you to the point where you will understand what you need to know in short order...

...So if you are going to point to "theory" then specify which part of what theory (chapter and verse). Example: If I want to do wiring in the house there is no point in sending me to read "electrodynamics" theory, when the theory I need is Black and Decker's home wiring. (Yah someone will now quibble that the latter is a practical text. See definition of music theory above)...

If you had taken my original post a little more seriously, you'd see that my suggestion was to seek the advice of a good teacher. Someone needs to evaluate what you know, what you want to accomplish, and how to proceed. That's not going to happen through an on-line forum. Sorry.

Phil

[twistedtom]

dpart you really got the best advice from us; we were not trying to be unkind. I am sorry if you felt other wise. Yes you are observant Frodo is very nice.
Look at learning theory as a long-term thing, we never stop learning this theory thing, I my self have been and will be on that road for a long time. I have much more to learn so helping others is one way to drill it into my own head. Some people do have doctorates in music, I don’t but I will try to help with what I do know.

I have read over your first post and I am not completely sure what you are trying to accomplish. Do you want to find a way to put some music from Reason fit a guitar part you have already recorded or are you looking to find a better way to put a song together? As this is in “theory” and from what I can tell by your post I am thinking it is the latter.
You already know some theory as you were talking about song structure so we may as well continue on this path.
It is not easy to help some one on line but I may be able to give you some kind of help.
So lets find out what your needs are and see if we can help you.

What are you trying to do musically? What is the kind of music? In this music category what is the closets popular band to where you are or want to be? How many layers do you want in it and how do you want them to interact? Do you have a set of chords for your song? Do you have a melody? What scales are you playing over it? What instruments can you play and what ones do you have. For understanding chords and how they relate having a musical keyboard would help a lot, as it is easy to see things on one.

I could give you a few things to help you and there for better control the results you want. What I will be able to tell you can only run so deep but with a few basics you can come miles. I can explain why some chords and notes sound better in different kinds of music and when and where they work best in your music. I can show you some way to put a song together and make it logical. Now like every one I am not knowledgeable in every kind of music but I do know how a number of kinds work and there are common things among most music. I also do not know what you knowledge of music is so we will have to communicate more to know where to go from here. So if you would like some help I will spend some time with you when I have the time.

[FMiguelez]

.

Actually, why spending countless hours in front of a stupid book or a damn piano, wasting time and brain cells?
Why reading books, or why wasting so much time understanding boring musical concepts?

Gladly, technology takes care of that. For those who want miraculous shortcuts, this will surely yield great results with a MINIMUM of effort:

http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/04/01/2002/



If you don't believe it, just ask Brad. Ask him if he will give you a money-back deal if a masterpiece is not composed using this new technology.

Not aimed at anyone in particular. I'm just sayin'

[twistedtom]

FM that is too funny, I almost Siht my self. I do hope dpart does not take it personally as you did say it is not aimed at any one.
We do need to make dpart feel welcomed here.

[FMiguelez]

.

Hey, Tom.

It is funny indeed. And I think some people actually fall for that

BTW, he has no reason to feel unwelcome. The joke wasn't aimed at him or anyone else (as I stated)

We all offered good advice, but apparently he didn't like it too much. I am not sure I understand what exactly he wants to accomplish, and the tone of his last post confused me a little bit.

But he is more than welcome here, though. The last thing we want to do is alienate people. OTOH, ALL we have done is give him what he asked for... our opinion and advise.