Pro Verb Confusion

[EMRR]

I still feel like I'm stabbing around in the dark, but here goes. My best guess is that something is not working correctly for you, given how many of our descriptives reference mono (or non-stereo) results. Maybe something below will make that apparent. Or not.

'gang' and 'matrix' are the only descriptive differences I see with the IR's directly in ProVerb. That doesn't clearly tell me anything. Can you point me to a definite stereo IR? I can't spot one described that way. I don't find any that clearly load up as two IR instances together.

I'm not getting the same reverb returning on both sides; that would be mono. I definitely get a stereo reverb return back. Left, Center, and Right representing LISTENER placement in that stereo return. Stereo I'm hearing; no question.

ProVerb is not available as a mono to mono insert. It always has a stereo return. I don't find a reverb example that I would even describe as dual mono (pure mono on two busses).

The changes I hear with the panning of a mono track across a stereo send bus are definitely representative of changing reverb with changing source placement. The listening position stays the same; left, center or right.

I can't quite imagine how or why you would want to combine all three listening positions in one reverb; it's schizophrenic. I can interpret what you are saying that way, but I don't think that's what you are saying. I don't listen from three positions, I listen from one position, within a stereo field. That's what I seem to be getting back in my system.

Multiple stereo perspective would be the only thing I can think of that would require multiple instances on separate stereo aux tracks, and that would be for 1960's style panning reverb effects with, say, signal on one side and a narrow stereo perspective reverb from center to hard panned opposite.

[bayswater]

I'm not getting the same reverb returning on both sides; that would be mono. I definitely get a stereo reverb return back. Left, Center, and Right representing LISTENER placement in that stereo return. Stereo I'm hearing; no question.

This is the first post in this thread that made sense to me.

[wurliuchi]

I'm not getting the same reverb returning on both sides; that would be mono. I definitely get a stereo reverb return back. Left, Center, and Right representing LISTENER placement in that stereo return. Stereo I'm hearing; no question.

Isn't it it the source's position -- stage left, stage right, stage center -- not the listener's position? Ah, never mind, you said "listener's placement" meaning the listener's placement of the source, not the listener's position. Now it makes sense to me.

When you say 100% wet, did you go into PV's Mix menu (that little triangle doodad by the Mix knob), set it to "dry level" and turn the Mix knob down to zero? Someone pointed out to me that that's the only way to get 100% wet. I thought turning the Mix knob up to 100% would do it, but the dry signal remains constant when you do that.

[wurliuchi]

ProVerb is not available as a mono to mono insert. It always has a stereo return. I don't find a reverb example that I would even describe as dual mono (pure mono on two busses).

I'm not picking on you, but there is a mono insert of Proverb. In the plug-in menu, it's right below mono to stereo.

[wurliuchi]

If you show the package contents of the bundle which stores ProVerb's factory impulses, there's five mono wav files for each impulse 1, 2, 3, 4, and S (not five, but S as in Sam).

' / Library / Application Support / MOTU/ Proverb/ (Ctrl-click to show package contents) / Factory / Halls or Plates or whatever

[EMRR]

I'm not getting the same reverb returning on both sides; that would be mono. I definitely get a stereo reverb return back. Left, Center, and Right representing LISTENER placement in that stereo return. Stereo I'm hearing; no question.

Isn't it it the source's position -- stage left, stage right, stage center -- not the listener's position? Ah, never mind, you said "listener's placement" meaning the listener's placement of the source, not the listener's position. Now it makes sense to me.

Actually, the IR's strike me as being the listeners position in the space, with the source placement determined by the combination of the send pan and the dry track pan.

When you say 100% wet, did you go into PV's Mix menu (that little triangle doodad by the Mix knob), set it to "dry level" and turn the Mix knob down to zero? Someone pointed out to me that that's the only way to get 100% wet. I thought turning the Mix knob up to 100% would do it, but the dry signal remains constant when you do that.

I don't remember doing the mix knob dance you describe, but I must have as I'm getting the same results trying it again. That menu acts pretty whacky. Rather than the menu selection leading the mix knob, it's the other way around and a change in the menu selection transfers the mix knob setting to the new menu selection, rather than showing you what it was already set at.

I'm not picking on you, but there is a mono insert of Proverb. In the plug-in menu, it's right below mono to stereo.

Right you are; I see it now. Here's another clue: when using the mono/mono instance on a mono track, if you select 'large room/normal/left' you have the additional choice of left or right. This says to me that the IR's are stereo unless you are in a mono/mono instance. Is this what Armageddon is doing?

I verified the bit about the 5 mono WAV files with Soundhack. Yes indeed. That would explain the term 'matrix'.

I should move on and be done thinking about this!

[Armageddon]

My apologies to all; I looked through Pro Verb again and could not find the l/r stereo impulses I was talking about earlier, though even when I was under the impression that I saw them, I only remembered seeing them in a couple of instances (however, I did happen to see a "Natural Room", so I know the remaining brain cells bouncing around in my skull aren't completely deluded!). This also means that what many of you have been saying is correct, that loading up, say "Natural Room Left" on a stereo instance of Pro Verb means you are actually sending to a stereo reverb that returns a stereo signal (based on one impulse?!?) ... it just means you're getting the sound of the left side of the room (from the listener's point of view, as EMRR stated). They do, however, have both mono and mono-to-stereo versions of Pro Verb (available on your mono channels, not your stereo channels).

However, this just adds to my confusion; what the hell's wrong with just having one natural room or a bright hall, without the l/r/c perspective? Altiverb actually does this by a "Place Instrument In The Stereo Field" sub-window, which allows you to move between two stereo speakers, and GigaPulse goes one step further by letting you place various instruments anywhere in the room or hall you have loaded. It then seems to me that to just have the approximation of one stereo room with true right and left, you would still have to do the steps I listed above, or else load up a stereo "Natural Room Left" and a stereo "Natural Room Right" bus, maybe even a stereo "Natural Room Center" to fill out one natural room, then send your audio tracks to whichever of the three busses fit the perspective you're going for. I guess I subscribe to the point-of-view that states I would like to have both sides of a stereo perspective covered in one reverb bus.

[wurliuchi]

Somewhere on this forum is a thread with links to sites that have IRs, free and otherwise. I rarely use the IRs that came with ProVerb anymore because I've found others that I like much better. Ah, here's that thread. I especially like some of the IRs of reverb units on this site.

[EMRR]

The return is in stereo in a stereo instance. There is no need whatsoever to load multiple instances to get stereo. I'm hearing it working just fine here.

The closest thing to a standard stereo preset would be the 'center' option. Loading a left and a right would be equivalent to having one ear on the left side of a room, and one on the right side. How big is the room; 40 feet wide? My ears aren't 30 feet apart. See my point? I use 'center', I'm standing in and listening from the center of that space. I use 'left' and I'm standing closer to the left wall of the room. etc. Look at 'europe/classic cathedral/'. You find 'altar', 'front pew', 'middle pew', 'back pew'. Those are the depth perspectives of the room, front to back. Each of those offers 'left', 'center', 'right' spatial perspectives. 12 spatial perspectives for that one space.

As wurliuchi stated, there appear to be 5 IR's per basic setting. Clearly various combinations are used, and the visible terminology 'matrix' within the ProVerb window suggests all may be present in any setting with different weighting for each preset. If you feel really tweaky about spatial perspective, insert a Trim plug after ProVerb.

I don't have altiverb for comparison. There may or may not be some real thing you hear differently there.

[Armageddon]

The return is in stereo in a stereo instance. There is no need whatsoever to load multiple instances to get stereo. I'm hearing it working just fine here.

I established in my last post that I can see it's indeed operating in stereo, as you've been saying.

The closest thing to a standard stereo preset would be the 'center' option. Loading a left and a right would be equivalent to having one ear on the left side of a room, and one on the right side. How big is the room; 40 feet wide? My ears aren't 30 feet apart. See my point? I use 'center', I'm standing in and listening from the center of that space. I use 'left' and I'm standing closer to the left wall of the room. etc. Look at 'europe/classic cathedral/'. You find 'altar', 'front pew', 'middle pew', 'back pew'. Those are the depth perspectives of the room, front to back. Each of those offers 'left', 'center', 'right' spatial perspectives. 12 spatial perspectives for that one space.

All well and good, but to fill out all sides of, say, a cathedral (assuming you want to mimic having an orchestra sitting inside of a cathedral), is it then necessary to load three busses with three reverbs and send to whichever one is closest to the side of the cathedral (or the center) the instrument's perspective would be? I'll tell you what, I'll make this simple; as you guys have been saying, I'll assume "center" is regular old stereo and go from there.

As wurliuchi stated, there appear to be 5 IR's per basic setting. Clearly various combinations are used, and the visible terminology 'matrix' within the ProVerb window suggests all may be present in any setting with different weighting for each preset. If you feel really tweaky about spatial perspective, insert a Trim plug after ProVerb.

I think the problem I've been having is, I only see one impulse, so I assume that's all there is (though I do notice the "Gang" sub-heading on all those loads).

I don't have altiverb for comparison. There may or may not be some real thing you hear differently there.

Altiverb and Gigapulse don't give you the option to load a left, right or center impulse, you just load up, say, a cathedral. If you'd then like to have to skew the reverb more towards one side of the room or the other, in Altiverb, you have a sub-window with two stereo speakers, and you just move the listener's icon more towards one speaker or the other. In Gigapulse, you actually have a visual representation of the room itself, and you can then place the instrument anywhere in this room (a kind of a three-dimensional reverb). The "left/right/center" thing threw me in Pro Verb in that I assumed it was loading up a mono impulse, something Altiverb and Gigapulse don't appear to do.

Anyway, thank you for the help! Sorry I was being so dense about it!

[EMRR]

The reverb is NOT the instrument position, it is the listener position. It is WHERE the impulse was taken from within the space.

The ProVerb window is a guide, not a gospel. We established there are 5 impulses for most reverb options with left, right, and center.

I think we are talking semantics of interface style.

[monkey man]

Wouldn't simply panning the various parts individually when sending them to a stereo instance of ProVerb allow you to accomplish the "distribution" you seek, Armageddon?

It should just do what it says on the tin, something I expect from MOTU.

[bayswater]

The reverb is NOT the instrument position, it is the listener position. It is WHERE the impulse was taken from within the space.

I get what you're saying, and why it makes no sense to do what Armageddon is saying about loading up multiple busses. The name of the impulse tells you where the mic was when they recorded the impulse. Could be left, right, etc, and sometime on a front pew, sometimes on a back (the clincher is when they start talking about front and back pews).

But it does raise the question of where we assume the source was for the recording. The impulse file must differ a lot depending on whether the source is in the front of the cathedral, the back, up high, low, near a wall, in a corner. So I assume the reverb gives you the sound that would result if your source was in the same position of the source used to create the impulse. Moving it by panning the channel or the send won't change the character of the sound.

[Armageddon]

I guess it all goes back to my original question: if setting up a "Cathedral Center" is the true stereo representation of that cathedral, and it behaves just like the cathedral setting on any other reverb, why does every impulse have a "left", "right" and "center" (and some, as monkey pointed out, have "middle pew center", etc.) impulse to choose from? Why would having a left or a right listening perspective even be necessary? Wouldn't that all be covered in the "cathedral center" perspective?

[bayswater]

I guess it all goes back to my original question: if setting up a "Cathedral Center" is the true stereo representation of that cathedral, and it behaves just like the cathedral setting on any other reverb, why does every impulse have a "left", "right" and "center" (and some, as monkey pointed out, have "middle pew center", etc.) impulse to choose from? Why would having a left or a right listening perspective even be necessary? Wouldn't that all be covered in the "cathedral center" perspective?

No. From EMRR's explanation, the center impulse simulates how a listener sitting in the centre of the pews in the cathedral experiences the sound. If that person gets up and moves the left aisle, the experience will change. The new experience is simulated by the left impulse. If the person moves to the back pew, it will change again. That's why it makes no sense to have both going at the same time. No one sits in the front centre and the front left and the back at the same time.

What I was asking is what we know about the location of the source of the sound it in the cathedral, and speculating that its position would make a material difference to the character of the sound no matter where you are sitting. The sound may have originated from just in front of the altar, or it may have originated in the choir. That would make a difference to the impulse because it would sound different to all listeners in all positions. If all this is true, to get a reasonable set of impulses for one space you would have to vary the location of the source and the location of the listener.