A new Hypothesis about the Shortcomings of DP and Host b

[TOD]

Hey Shooshie,

It's really good to have you back. This forum has been a little dry lately and It's refreshing to have some of the "old guard" return. You have been a "light in the storm" for me on many an occasion. As for this "debate", I still don't get David's point. Although, I welcome this kind of healthy discourse. Maybe I'm just a liitle under-caffeinated. My own studio experience has my DP system considerably more stable than several of the "Big" Pro-Tools studios in Chicago.

Just remember what H.A.L. said, "I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do. It can only be attributable to human error."

nuff said.

[wylie]

Anyone got a lite?

Sure I think we better go outside with that one though

Aren't we all here because we love DP?
Sure DP has crashed during editing but when I set up tacks and hit record during a session I've never had a problem.
I've work with pro tools as well and just don't like the look of it.Its just like a car they'll all get you to where you want to go and they all fall apart eventually.

<small>[ April 19, 2005, 06:50 AM: Message edited by: wylie ]</small>

[croyal]

Originally posted by toodamnhip:
Did I mention you were right and I am wrong?..I hope so...yes indeed!
I will soon have my assistant post "jerk" and every other name on a declaration....let me know how to spell your name so I can give you the proper credit for putting me in my place....shall I post in the Mac section as well as DP?....

Send a list of websites too so I can hit them all in one shot...

We wouldn't want you to miss any credit do you for saving the masses from my wrath....

Take your time..I have nothing better to do..I'll wait...

I had to jump in. Toodamnhip- you don't seem to be aware how you're pissing people off... even the quote above this shows all the sarcasm that just lights a fire under everyone's (even Ms. Motu's ) panties. Giving you the benefit of the doubt that you meant a discussion, you preceded it with inaccuracies and opinion based on your solo experience. Your posts come off as if you are a pretender- especially when you credit your "tech" for you setup- when many peope here are techs and still have found a bug or 3 with DP, PT, Cubase , whatever.

Like a guy showing up at a car repair place saying that he found the best way to run a car- just have the same one- and he has a mechanic that can do that. It's not being protective of DP as much as the insult of inaccuacy before your actual intent comes out is the problem. You lose credibility because you come off as the guy who pays the $$$ to a tech but has no system config time of your own to support what you say.

If you're on the level, again giving you the benefit of the doubt, you probably feel that we just killed the messenger without really hearing the message, so...

DP will never be as stable as pro tools( or similar self contained systems) on a mass level due to the variables of so many systems, such variables affecting DP severely due to such intimate reliance on the OS and the computer being used for DP's power and mind.

I hear you, but...
If you visit the Digidesign forums you'll see that this is NOT TRUE. Users have the same problems with all these systems. Ask your tech to let you troubleshoot a system with him sometime and maybe he'll let you in on how he FIXES problems that you think don't exist. Then maybe you'll understand how your original message is based on flawed logic not based on tech support experience. PT cards don't run the programs "mind" as you call it, mainly the processing power- so PT, like DP, is still OS dependent, making your assertion false.

Then you became insulting and sarcastic when pressed, as if you were presenting a new concept too radical for the emotionally challenged here at UN. All this without recognizing (or admitting) the original statement makes no sense because it's not true!!

If you intend to talk about the ills of reliance on OS, why didn't you say so instead of making "troll-ish" posts? So, I give you the benefit of the doubt. Come on and say what you mean and mean what you say.

Literacy is a 2 way street; yes we have to interpret what you wrote, but you have to write what you mean in the tone and spirit which reflects your intention. If people are getting ticked, maybe you should re-evaluate your posting style check your facts.

[builder]

Ok I'll bite.

"It just dawned on me that one system might be fine, (like mine), and other's can be full of problems.
This illicites the following truth:"

I don't think this is the statement that got you in trouble. The only truth is that everyone has an opinion. Your happends to be that PT is more stable than DP. Call it what it is..... an opinion and you should be fine

If I can offer an analogy

I have a Suburu. I like it, it runs wonderfully and I take care of it. This one time it didn't start because I left the light on all night... oh well. Everything else is great. Gets me exactly where I need to go.
My buddy also has the same suburu. His engine blew 4 months afterwards and had to be completely replaced. Every now and then he has a problem but he trys to stay calm and work through it

You have a suburu like ours and also a 60,000$ Mercedes. Both run great, but you Mercedes was hand build, only uses Mercedes parts, and is serviced by your personal mechanic.

Both cars will get you to where you need to go, but you have heard of other peoples Suburu's having problems. Therefore the Mercedes is much better and Suburu should look into building their cars my hand as well.

But what you are not factoring in is that many people's Mercedes break down all the time. Is the Mercedes a better car. Sure, but not in the sense of what a car needs to do, and that is drive.

"Thus, DP will never truly compare to Pro Tools as far as stability. on a gross level. One user might get his system working, but never will it work for all ...too many varied systems, too much reliance on too many variable systems...."

This is going to be the case for anything. So Protools will always work? I believe you are setting a way too high standard to work with.

What do I know anyway.... All I have is a tape recorder with a built in mic......

That was the joke.

DP Rules!!!

[toodamnhip]

Hey Builder and all others that are chiming in, I appreciate your interest and truly feel you guys are being very diplomatic and have great intentions...I appreciate that...thanks!

In my recollection, I put out an idea for debate and discussion, the emotional reactions were not started by me...re-read, check the history, I have stayed very light and refused to get really personal.....

I find some members reactions to be childish..read carefully, you'll see a) I did not try to post to be antagonistic or emotional, b) that I did not start this trend of personal attacks or emotional partisanship, c)and that I wrote the post for the benefit of discusion and the benefit of those whose systems are crashing, my system is fine, I maintain my own system after my tech set it all up in a very specialized way removing fonts and system clutter. But who advised my tech of the new ways to set up a system? Who researched this? Me...Again, my point being MOTU needs to be more on the ball to advize as to set ups.

I work very hard to keep my system clean...But I do feel I have to learn too much on my own and waste too much time being a computer geek...it's so bad that I've actually grown to love it...kind of sick eh?

AGAIN... read carefull what I said...look carefully at who got emotional and defensive and their statements and how accurate they were to what I actually said...

PS, I don;t care if I am wrong about Pro Tools..this is about discussion....I can be totally wrong and feel fine here as long as their is real discussion and not emotional blah blah..maybe my last post was sarcastic..but I sure was pushed..lol

But whatever...like I said..think of me as a jerk..no prob...I'm kind of surprised by all of this and didn't even think I'd respond to any more posts except you seem like a good guy...
Be well...

<small>[ April 19, 2005, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: toodamnhip ]</small>

[bradswan]

Hey you guys--all this talk about Mrs. Motu's panties is starting to turn me on. If anyone has a picture could you please post.

[toodamnhip]

Yeah Brad!..

A Joke..god knows we need one....

well done....

I have seen Mrs. MOTU's panties...life is good

[sdfalk]

Hmmm
I re-read the posts and though a few people did get a bit
overly aggressive in their responses, you often came across
as arrogant, and fairly childlike yourself.
Your intentions may have been well founded but your results
where ••••.
If you truly had wanted a civilized discussion, you would have
pointed out (patiently) to people their mistakes in interpreting
your opening statements.
Instead you acted like you where spoiling for a fight, not
an intelligent discussion.
Even if previous posters had pissed you off in some way, you
could have chosen the higher ground.
You didn't.

[Artspoke]

TDH,

Maybe this isn't what you meant, but it might help pull you out of the deep water here:

Howabout a hardware solution, like a farm card, that handles the application, not the DSP. What if DP came out on a chip, instead if a CD-ROM. Then it would be completely the same, user to user, and everyone should have the same experience. It wouldn't need much of anything from the computer itself - just generic communication with the drives/RAM/io/etc.. Of course, it wouldn't be configurable, but who needs to configure DP for their own needs anyhow? Aren't we all doing exactly the same thing with it? I guess the joking in this thread has rubbed off on me...

I think, amidst the flamboyant typing in this thread, there might be a discussion about the benefits/pitfalls of hardware solutions verses software solutions - NOT specific hardware/software per se, such as PT vs DP, but R and D type of thinking, that, perhaps, references existing solutions, but does not compare them in a branding sense.

"Stability" is one of the longer four-letter-words I know. It cannot be quantified, and therefore cannot be compared. I would love it if everyone, in every thread, would stop using this word entirely. What is stability anyway? If a system crashes, any system, it is because something extremely specific happened - not because the "stability meter" dipped too low.

While it is certainly true that some applications cause a higher frequency of crashes, due to specific bugs, than others, it is my belief that these forums exist to get to the bottom of an individual bug, find support for the existance of the proposed bug, and then make MOTU aware of it, in hopes it will be addressed in the next release.

Think about it, has there ever been a single instance of a Tech Support telephone representative saying, "thank you for pointing this bug out to us, we have just now, based on your information, written a patch specifically for you, which will erradicate your bug. It is sitting in your email inbox right now."? Of course not - this isn't the reason for tech support. Tech support is strictly there to handle issues brought about by user error. They are basically interpreters of the User's manual. Some of us dream outside of reason that they also tally the number of calls that don't fit the script, and take the tally sheets, along with a detailed transcription of each call, to the programming department - each day - before lunch... This may happen a little... I HOPE!!! But it's simply not their purpose or responisiblity.

Unicornation is surprisingly understanding and helpful in this newbie/getting started sense. I sometimes feel that many posts here would have never made it, had the poster simply phoned tech support instead. However, having listened to the busy signal at MOTU 30+ calls straight I can certainly understand the motivation to post, and get help, here. All of this is to show purpose here, both for the BBS itself, as well as each user who posts here. If there were no bugs, there would be no need for unicornation. We ARE paying beta testers, and as such, we come here to compare notes. And don't forget, WE LOVE IT!

If there is a discussion going on here about hardware solutions that could ease pains inherently caused by a software solution to the same problem, then AMEN! Shouldn't we be talking about what types of software, or portions of applications could be converted to hardware? Are there any examples of this in production? Could they be adapted to something that could be attached to my Mac, and made compatible with DP? Does anyone posting here have the ability to create such hardware, or know the right people to create it?

I suspect not. For example, a DSP solution for DP has been wished for by users here and elsewhere, and avoided by MOTU since the beginning of DP. My ten cents (thanks for the 411 on the inflation markup) looks like this:

Remember when Apple decided to let 3rd party companies make Mac knockoffs (powercomputing, etc.)? It nearly put them out of business due to the loss of the one unique feature to Mac alone - they were all made in the same place in the same way. When this hardware troubleshooting gem was eliminated by letting anyone make "compatible" hardware, Apple nearly lost their shirt (skirt?) for real. I think hardware or software, it's all made by people, and worse news yet, used by people too. It may not be the case every time that the user is simply an idiot, it could come down to the fact that a user is free thinking, and therefore could, hypothetically, think of/stumble upon a new way to configure his/her system, which *might* cause unexpected results.

As users, we stumble. Thankfully, unicornation is here to help us up, or at least stumble along with us. Please keep this in mind when posting.

Thanks,
-James

[chrispick]

Originally posted by sdfalk:
Hmmm
I re-read the posts and though a few people did get a bit
overly aggressive in their responses, you often came across
as arrogant, and fairly childlike yourself.
Your intentions may have been well founded but your results
where ••••.
If you truly had wanted a civilized discussion, you would have
pointed out (patiently) to people their mistakes in interpreting
your opening statements.
Instead you acted like you where spoiling for a fight, not
an intelligent discussion.
Even if previous posters had pissed you off in some way, you
could have chosen the higher ground.
You didn't.

Well, the above isn't exactly high ground either.

Let's just drop this thing. It's gotten way out of proportion on both sides of the fence. And for no sensible reason.

I want to see kissing. From everyone.

[chrispick]

Originally posted by Artspoke:
TDH,

I think, amidst the flamboyant typing in this thread, there might be a discussion about the benefits/pitfalls of hardware solutions verses software solutions - NOT specific hardware/software per se, such as PT vs DP, but R and D type of thinking, that, perhaps, references existing solutions, but does not compare them in a branding sense.

I thought this was the crux of the matter, yeah. I think some people missed the forest for the trees here.

Hey, didn't I just tell me to drop this thread! If I don't listen to me one more time, I'm in big trouble, mister!

[Artspoke]

XXXXXX! (kisses)

I was just remembering my Commodore 64! I still have it, along with some 100 floppies, that still work!! In fact, my high scores, getting on 20 years old still stand!!!

The OS, though much more simple, existed as hardware. As far as I know there was never a Commodore 64.1. They simply released there OS on a chip, and it stood the test of time. I think an applicable use of this same idea would be to release a legacy chip of every final rev of an OS, or even an application. Think about it, wouldn't it be awesome if software revs of apps/Os's such as DP 3.11, and OS 9.2 were available in hardware form? When my C-64 crashed, I'd simply powercycle it, and within two seconds, I was up and running again.

If Macs only had an OS and acartridge slot, we could startup as usual in "beta mode", with all the new promises of bells and whistles and report our troubles here, and then simply hold down the "Commodore Key" at startup when we want to get some actual work done!

sys 64738,
-James

[toodamnhip]

OK..let's get scientific....
there's an equation I want to present...and everyone can then consider exactly this as it boils all I want to say, down to one idea....

More reliance on Operating systems designed to do many things well, such systems constantly upgraded and changing with or without MOTU's approval, such systems bowing to many masters so to speak= More chances for random results.

Corrolary-----(second law stemming from a previous truth or logic)

To the degree you operate in your own world that you control= more predictable results, i.e. stability.

These are my points of logic.

To the degree you use Mac's power and resources, you are more apt for random problems compared to a wholly dedicated system, you fully control.

Yes, Pro tools and it's ilk do rely on Mac OS....but my point is that it relies on OSx and other OS's less.

So, do we think that in the long run, DP is at a long term disadvantage due to those two logics I presented?

Yes or NO?

And all discussion I hope for is as relates to THAT point of logic.

Mine is better than yours is not up for discussion.

Just The facts mam'.....

<small>[ April 19, 2005, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: toodamnhip ]</small>

[sdfalk]

Well, the above isn't exactly high ground either.

Let's just drop this thing. It's gotten way out of proportion on both sides of the fence. And for no sensible reason.

I want to see kissing. From everyone.

..More so then anything else I've read here.
but yeah whatever..

[toodamnhip]

Hey SDFALk....

though you ripped on me a bit, which I really payed no attention to by the way...I noticed you're from Banff Alberta...

Beautiful place man!..I'm jealous....

<small>[ April 19, 2005, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: toodamnhip ]</small>