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Man whenever I see Tim's Avatar I got look away and scroll by as fast as possible. That set of chompers would make Austin Powers jealous...

waxman wrote:Man whenever I see Tim's Avatar I got look away and scroll by as fast as possible. That set of chompers would make Austin Powers jealous...

I've grown to expect that should I ever meet Tim, he'll look just like his avatar. I'll be looking around the room for that face. Something tells me I'll probably be (pleasantly) surprised.

Some replies...

To Rent-a-drummer (Ron):

There is another "tap tempo" that I think you should know about. When in Tempo Slider mode, tap the \ key (backslash). By the second tap you'll see the tempo slider adjust to your tapping speed. Keep tapping and it will keep adjusting the tempo. Once you're sure you are at the tempo you want, hit RETURN. I can usually nail it in about 3 taps and RETURN.



To Waxman:
I don't remember now exactly what you had asked, but U-Nation is running so slow for me I don't want to go back and find it. (It's taking like 3 minutes to load a page or post a message) So, I'm going to go with the best I can recall. If it's not what you were asking about, let me know. I think you were talking about setting up a tempo map for a piece of music. I think the feature you're wanting is "Record Beats." With Tap Tempo broken, I haven't even gone as far as "Record Beats" in many years, so I don't know the current status of it. Maybe the same trick is required to make it work. Maybe not. I used to use Record Beats many years ago, but stopped using it a while back, because I was working a lot with Disklaviers, and they have a half-second latency between the time they receive a MIDI signal and the time they actually play it. That makes for some interesting problems in MIDI arranging that most DAWs cannot handle. DP is particularly suited for it, because MOTU added some features for me many years ago, but Record Beats is one that just didn't work well with disklaviers.

Anyway, if I were to use Record Beats today, I'd go through it as closely as I could, then I'd follow up with "Adjust Beats" with snapping and "preserve original performance" turned on. With the beats already pretty close, from Record Beats, I could get it exact with Adjust Beats in no time at all. Since they would already be close, I'd probably go note-by-note, and just "bump" them so they would jump into position under their notes. Where there is a beat without a note or transient to snap to, I'd hold down the COMMAND key and move it until I saw the tempo mark levelling out with its predecessors. (I keep the Conductor Track and the MIDI/Audio comparison track open and locked to each other in Consolidated Windows)

Anyway, there's no really fast way of doing a tempo map. If you can record beats accurately enough, then you might get away with just that by itself. But I find that either DP or me is not accurate enough to do a complete tempo map that way. That's why I always finish with Adjust Beats, and bump each beat to its "real" position.

Shooshie

Shooshie wrote:

waxman wrote:Man whenever I see Tim's Avatar I got look away and scroll by as fast as possible. That set of chompers would make Austin Powers jealous...

I've grown to expect that should I ever meet Tim, he'll look just like his avatar. I'll be looking around the room for that face. Something tells me I'll probably be (pleasantly) surprised.

Frodo wrote:

FMiguelez wrote:.

AWESOME discovery, Shoosh!!!!!!!

Thanks for this, man, really. I had given up on this feature LONG ago, but now, it's been reborn.

Ok. That's the bright side. Now, the dark one, though a bit unrelated:

Eventhough Magic D spelled a work around, I still haven't been able to make sense of the fact that when you go into tap mode, BUT with a QT movie, the damned thing will speed up or down according to your tapping. Now , from a Film Scoring perspective, that just doesn't make sense...
Suppose you have a cue where you need a flowing tempo, with some nice ritardandos, etc. Well, you can't record nor design a tempo map like that because the QT keeps speeding up or slowing down

Why would one EVER need this to work like that? I can make it work with some worarounds, but they make you waste so much time, and do totally unnecessary steps.

Maybe this bug is related to the workaround you just discovered, but I don't think so. There is just something very weird and poorly-coded about this. DP is supposed to be THE film scoring app, correct? So why would I want the QT movie to speed up or down according to my tapped tempo?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

If someone figures this out, that person will definitely win a medal.

This is one of the sick casualties of relying on workarounds for everything. The first problem (before getting to tap tempo) is the fact that your project is now running at 400 bpm anyway.

Workarounds have their limits-- and I'm begging MOTU to fix the problem once and for all. PLEEEEEZ.

It's been at least 4 years since this feature was broken. I have no idea how people doing serious scoring have gotten around this hurdle.

Totally agreed, Frodo.

But this is actually more than that. I think it is an EMBARASSEMENT!! I mean, how professional does that look? The first time it happened to me I thought I was dreaming. Acgtually, it took me a few recording passes to notice that not wonder I couldn't record my tempo map as I wanted... How could I, it the stupid movie kept changing speed...

Anyway, THIS is one of the things MOTU really needs to fix. PRONTO. As I just said, not only does it look unprofessional, but it's really embarassing. At least it should be for MOTU. How if they added in their web site, under the Film Scoring features:

"Your QT movie will follow your tempo tapping"...

Of course, those "Big name" composers that use DP to score their gigs, MUST use a dedicated machine for video, or somehow deal with this.
Or maybe I should just shut up and get me a Mac-mini for this as well...

Fernando, can you lock the QT track? (I don't know the answer to that. Just asking)

Shooshie

Tim, that must be an old picture, for since it was taken your hair has gotten darker, right?


Shooshie

Shooshie wrote:Fernando, can you lock the QT track? (I don't know the answer to that. Just asking)

Shooshie

There is a lock in the movie's upper window frame that, when disabled, allows one to 'control' the movie and DP's sequences independently. That means, when locked the transport does everything. When unlocked, the movie won't run unless you use the movie's own transport buttons. That's clearly not the answer, though.

I've been looking for more info, but the only option outside of avoiding tap tempo is to time stretch/compress the audio to fit or to just ignore grids and use flutters, punches, and streamers. I'm still searching, though, fwiw.

Shooshie wrote:Tim, that must be an old picture, for since it was taken your hair has gotten darker, right? ;)

What hair?

That was ninth grade, '73.

Shooshie wrote:Fernando, can you lock the QT track? (I don't know the answer to that. Just asking)

Shooshie

Hi, Shoosh. Yes, definitely. Actually, this used to be one work-around, but got tired of it. If the QT movie is locked, it will follow the tap tempo , and if it's not, then it won't. BUT, as I remember (I quit doing it a while ago), it was not very practicall to unlock it. First, you needed to start the sequence with the QT locked (otherwise it starts playing without DP). At some point you then needed to unlock it with a quick click, then quickly prepare your left hand (or foot) to tap the desired tempo while the right hand would play some kind of melodic idea. Then you have to stop DP and the QT separately. Relock the QT and see if what you did worked or not.
And you better NOT make a mistake and get it perfect the first time around, or else, go back to the original point, and start all over again with all those steps. Believe me. I tried SO hard to make it work, but if I was an octopus it could've worked. But I only have 2 arms, and nothing kills the creative flow faster than doing all those steps.

Another work-around, and it's the one I've been doing, but it feels TOTALLY clumsy and unprofessional, is to record your "would-be tapped tempos" in a regular MIDI track, using a click sound. After you get it right, you have to adjust the beats to your recorded tap tempos, and there you have it. It's not THAT bad, and totally doable, but again, not ideal, and especially NOT ideal for an app that is supposed to be THE film scoring app. It makes you go through unnecessary steps, waste time and wish it worked the way it's supposed to.

Now, if I remember correctly from that thread long ago, Magic D stated that this QT behaviour was supposed to be like that... Don't quote me on this, and I apologize to MD if me neurons betray me regarding this, but I still haven't been able to figure out why anyone would want the QT movie to slowdown or speed up according to the tapping. Beats the hell out of me. And I haven't been able to figure out either what MOTU is waiting for to fix this embarassing and laughable little bug. Or feature???

MOTU, PLEASE, and I BEG, fix this thing.

Frodo wrote:

Shooshie wrote:Fernando, can you lock the QT track? (I don't know the answer to that. Just asking)

Shooshie

There is a lock in the movie's upper window frame that, when disabled, allows one to 'control' the movie and DP's sequences independently. That means, when locked the transport does everything. When unlocked, the movie won't run unless you use the movie's own transport buttons. That's clearly not the answer, though.

I've been looking for more info, but the only option outside of avoiding tap tempo is to time stretch/compress the audio to fit or to just ignore grids and use flutters, punches, and streamers. I'm still searching, though, fwiw.

Yes, Frodo, indeed. Please read my response to Shooshie just above this one to learn about my laughable work-arounds (especially the first one which, obviously, I no longer use). We should not need an extra independent computer just to accomplish this, right??

FMiguelez wrote:Yes, Frodo, indeed. Please read my response to Shooshie just above this one to learn about my laughable work-arounds (especially the first one which, obviously, I no longer use). We should not need an extra independent computer just to accomplish this, right??

I have, and I fully understand the "tap dance" you've had to do all too well.

I'm now trying to figure out why the feature appearently doesn't need to be fixed because I'm convinced that either I'm not using DP properly or that the feature would be fixed if it were really broken. I *must* be missing something because it just can't be that complicated.

Of course, the feature is broken-- I'm just messed up after spending a full day revisiting old bugs for the first time in weeks. Then again, I've never in my entire life wished I were entirely wrong moreso than right now. I'm going to keep my chin up, though, because tomorrow is another day.

Frodo wrote:I'm now trying to figure out why the feature appearently doesn't need to be fixed because I'm convinced that either I'm not using DP properly or that the feature would be fixed if it were really broken.

I seriously doubt your former point, my friend I think you are using DP totally properly. The latter one... well... Sorry to say this, but it wouldn't be the first time something that should be quickly fixed by MOTU isnt', correct?

Frodo wrote:I *must* be missing something because it just can't be that complicated.

I know!! It should not be THAT complicated, that's why I trully believe is a stupid big bug. I've gone through it a million times, through the manual, trying new things with a positive attidude and a fresh perspective... no luck. I n this case it is NOT us... it's DP. It needs a fix regarding this. PRONTO!!!

I would't typically recommend sending beat mapped tracks to someone not using the same beat map. Theoretically, though, it's important to remember that the audio is not changed. Audio that locks to audio *should* work, but it's hard to know until you've tried it. MIDI tracks are probably out of the question.

Is it really necessary for you to beat map?

Possibly not. This is just for me, and I assumed that if I could get a tempo map, with a click, the grid in the Drum Editor would line up with the click and make editing, and searching, easier. Tap Tempo might not be the right tool for the job, and it could be that Adjust Beats is the better choice. Shooshie gave me some tips a long time ago about using Adjust Beats, but this was for a track I had already recorded without a click. Maybe that's still the best tool, but better when used on the original band track before I record the drums. Another one of those features that I'm not that familiar with. (with which I'm not that familiar? Don't want to offend the grammar patrol.)

Are your collaborators using DP?

There are only a few instances when I get a track without click, and they aren't DP projects. Most of the time, unless someone is working in DP, all I send back are the individual audio drum tracks, or a 2 track drum mix.

Dunno-- I'd probably choose to just play in real time (you are using real drums, yes?) and do it tape deck style, zero-sync the drum track(s) and give it back to them. You can still edit your tracks however you'd want. That way, they can set your files to 1|1|000 and they'll all line up without worrying about timestamps and tempo maps, etc.

I'm recording with an electronic kit and start by recording a MIDI sequence. Once I edit the one bad note (in my dreams) I print the audio. I do all of my editing in the Drum Editor and without grid lines that line up with a click, it's a little more difficult to quantize the one note that's out of time (again, wishful thinking).

Thanks again for taking the time to post some suggestions.

To Rent-a-drummer (Ron):

There is another "tap tempo" that I think you should know about. When in Tempo Slider mode, tap the \ key (backslash). By the second tap you'll see the tempo slider adjust to your tapping speed. Keep tapping and it will keep adjusting the tempo. Once you're sure you are at the tempo you want, hit RETURN. I can usually nail it in about 3 taps and RETURN.

That's the method that I've used a few times to find the overall tempo of the song. I think it's something I learned from you shortly after I joined the 'nation.

To Waxman:
I don't remember now exactly what you had asked, but U-Nation is running so slow for me I don't want to go back and find it. (It's taking like 3 minutes to load a page or post a message) So, I'm going to go with the best I can recall. If it's not what you were asking about, let me know. I think you were talking about setting up a tempo map for a piece of music. I think the feature you're wanting is "Record Beats." With Tap Tempo broken, I haven't even gone as far as "Record Beats" in many years, so I don't know the current status of it. Maybe the same trick is required to make it work. Maybe not. I used to use Record Beats many years ago, but stopped using it a while back, because I was working a lot with Disklaviers, and they have a half-second latency between the time they receive a MIDI signal and the time they actually play it. That makes for some interesting problems in MIDI arranging that most DAWs cannot handle. DP is particularly suited for it, because MOTU added some features for me many years ago, but Record Beats is one that just didn't work well with disklaviers.

Anyway, if I were to use Record Beats today, I'd go through it as closely as I could, then I'd follow up with "Adjust Beats" with snapping and "preserve original performance" turned on. With the beats already pretty close, from Record Beats, I could get it exact with Adjust Beats in no time at all. Since they would already be close, I'd probably go note-by-note, and just "bump" them so they would jump into position under their notes. Where there is a beat without a note or transient to snap to, I'd hold down the COMMAND key and move it until I saw the tempo mark levelling out with its predecessors. (I keep the Conductor Track and the MIDI/Audio comparison track open and locked to each other in Consolidated Windows)

Anyway, there's no really fast way of doing a tempo map. If you can record beats accurately enough, then you might get away with just that by itself. But I find that either DP or me is not accurate enough to do a complete tempo map that way. That's why I always finish with Adjust Beats, and bump each beat to its "real" position.

I'm not Waxman but I've thinking about what you just described. I'm wondering if Tap Tempo isn't what I need in the first place, and I should be using Adjust Beats.

You once explained to me how to use this feature on a drum track I had already recorded, but now I'm thinking I might be able to use it on an audio band track, before I record the drums, to align the original audio track to the grid first. I'm not sure if I understand it well enough to know if this will do what I want it to, but I'll look at your old emails with the info and play around with it. As long as it doesn't move the original audio on the time line, and just shifts the bar lines, this could be a good solution.