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I don't think its running under emulation for real (I checked the version # just to be sure though).

Its just crazy - I mean, you load up Reason or Live or Logic... Reason is pretty much in-line with a Dual 2.0 G5 or even better. You add a plug in Logic - The CPU meter moves a noticable amount. You can make a Reason rack a mile high that you can almost get to max out the CPU meter.

It is just unreal how inefficient DP seems to be. I can't imagine anyone saying that there is speed increase... makes me wonder what they were using before (G3-350's anyone?).

I'm just comparing it to the performance of these other apps. Since I got the MacBook, I've been blown away by the performance - but was just waiting for DP. I bought Logic only because there wasn't anything else - and OMG the interface BLOWS GNADS - stuff is under menus that shouldn't be under them - its a mess... but... it works really well.

I'd like to know what results other people are getting for real - and if they are good, what do they usually use.

I don't think you'll see those Waves numbers using DP intel.

that I had to spend all of my time posting here to have my opinion considered. As I said, I have been using Performer since its inception. One of you jokers posted "I wonder how long he's been using DP". Gee, if I've been making records for 30 years, and have been a loyal MOTU user, I wonder. Do you think maybe the day it came out?! The friends that I referenced have more spray-painted discs on their walls than me, and they've always teased me about using DP. I now know what they're talking about. Its not that DP sounds terrible (and you bozos that think everyone's mix algorithms sound the same aren't keeping up. Why do you think there's all this noise about summing?), but as a package there is quite a difference. Are you going to compare Sculpture to what.. Nanosynth? I simply believe that Logic has pulled far away into the lead w/v7.x. I've been scanning this forum lately because I didn't want to have to switch (BIG pain in the ass), and was hoping that all would be well. I really love the Intel Duo processor. It is most definitly NOT as important as a good song, (as another slammed me for. I guess he must be one of the great composers of our era.), but its performance is stellar.

Anyway, just felt like posting my displeasure with the LONG awaited UB version. MOTU is becoming much more like M-Audio. Great, prosumer products. (The Black Lion upgrades are cool though!) Sorry if I ruffled your feathers "mate".

smidijack wrote:that I had to spend all of my time posting here to have my opinion considered. As I said, I have been using Performer since its inception. One of you jokers posted "I wonder how long he's been using DP". Gee, if I've been making records for 30 years, and have been a loyal MOTU user, I wonder. Do you think maybe the day it came out?! The friends that I referenced have more spray-painted discs on their walls than me, and they've always teased me about using DP. I now know what they're talking about. Its not that DP sounds terrible (and you bozos that think everyone's mix algorithms sound the same aren't keeping up. Why do you think there's all this noise about summing?), but as a package there is quite a difference. Are you going to compare Sculpture to what.. Nanosynth? I simply believe that Logic has pulled far away into the lead w/v7.x. I've been scanning this forum lately because I didn't want to have to switch (BIG pain in the ass), and was hoping that all would be well. I really love the Intel Duo processor. It is most definitly NOT as important as a good song, (as another slammed me for. I guess he must be one of the great composers of our era.), but its performance is stellar.

Then switch to Logic. Do what's best for you.

Why seek validation or support for the move on a DP-oriented user bulletin board? If you're displeased with MOTU's UB endeavors, let MOTU know.

re: summing -- a contentious subject to say the least.

Even though I am not ready to jump ship like smidijack, I can sympathize with some of the feelings he has about DP and the direction it is going. DP since version 4 has been slowly going down a frightning path. It seems each time you attempt to push it a little, it breaks. Simple things like editing multiple soundbites at the same time crashes it. Add a few VIs and DP starts to slow down... too many soundbites in a project, get ready for a crash or more slowdowns. these are all very well documented bugs or let's say OSX "growing pains". unfortuantly OSX has been out for a few years and DP has not really grown fast enough. for me, DP4.5 has been very very solid, but the bugs mentioned above are not showstoppers, but have made DP a less inspiring app to use.

Is logic any better? don't know... I tested it out at 6.4 and was VERY VERY dissapointed. but a slow start for DP5 with numerous bugs being reported has made me think about upgrading logic to 7 and giving it another go alongside DP...

r.

-EDIT

ok... just jumped to the logic forum on OSX audio to see what's happening there.. and there is a thread talking about how toylike logic is getting since apple got hold of them... best option now is to find workarounds for any DP bugs... like using two machines to offload VIs and keep CPU down - which seems to be the biggest culprit of many crashes with DP...

I truly hope that my particular question about Performer and DP wasn't taken the wrong way. Truth is, while the problems have been clearly stated, so little discussion has been had as to why the problems are ocurring, whether these are problems that can be fixed with some system tweaks, or whether these issues are simply insurmountable. Not knowing for sure what was being used and how are crucial bits of info to have in advance of searching for the source of the problem.

With the consideration that not everyone is experiencing a decline of performance, it seems that some sort of system tweak would bear the solution.

But, there is a thin line between insulting a user's experience with an app and probing for possible solutions or possible causes to such problems which occur.

I would hope that U-nation doesn't alienate a member with a genuine issue. We get enough of that from various customer support reps.

So let's focus a bit on this slow performance matter in the event others experience it. Such a solution would be a prime candidate for the tips thread.

Now, if using Logic is the solution, then that's fine. I use Logic myself, albeit with a bit a struggle, but with no guilt. And, if the Logic-sounds-better-than-DP theory applies here, then there's nothing wrong with a user making that choice.

But if sorting out DP our purpose, then let's try to delve into this a bit:

1. Could it be that Audio Units Info Cache may need to be rewritten by 5.1 in UB format? (trash AUIC)

2. Could it be that there are some third party plugins are responsible for slowing down DP? (uninstall all third-party plugs and reinstall the latest versions one at a time until the problem can be either isolated and reported, or until it goes away.

3. Could it be that the problem goes away when running Built-In Audio? If so, then the problem is clearly associated somehow with the audio interface or its driver.

4. Could it be that some component vestige of a non UB version of DP is the ghost in the machine? Again, all third-party components which find their ways into various other Library Folders can easily be overlooked. Much care must be taken with very clean installations, which again may require very clean un-installations.

It's no surprise that with the release of a new version that a new can of worms would make itself known. Regardless of what we know about previous versions of DP and the Mac, UB is a whole new world for all of us. To find the needle in the haystack one must burn the entire haystack.

Well, this I know. DP5 is not UB and the demo song bogs down pretty fast.

In addition, fwiw, USC always used and required that students for their FILM SCORING class purchase DP. *You must have a BA in Music to get in.

The rumor is they may swith to LOGIC.

However, I think UB DP5 will be fine. In addition, I think the biggest loser will be TDM systems, there are talks of OCTO cores coming out BEFORE THIS YEAR IS OVER and on dual CPU motherboards!

HELLO? That's 16 CPU's on one motherboard. TDM is just about dead in the water, and now there is also talk about external GPU devices so you can take your laptop and a little box with you to render FCP etc with amazing power.

All will be fine when UB comes out. However, how well it plays with VST's is also a factor as due to mac becoming x86 the code requires less effort than two totally different platforms. Yes I know OSX is based on Unix, but the audio is about to change with VISTA as well. Similar to COREAUDO. But VST Instruments are HUGE now and sure there are some RTAS for Protools but not much more (i.e. Logic/DP) so I wish Apple and Motu could just support VST native.

peace

retroz311 wrote:Well, this I know. DP5 is not UB

retroz311 wrote:Well, this I know. DP5 is not UB...

Hey retro--but.... but..... but.....

Really good suggestions, Frodo, for Spock-like troubleshooting of smidijack's DP5.1/UB-DP problems. Emotionless, analytical, helpful.

Maybe the retroz311 guy meant DP 5.0 was not UB, not 5.1?

Hello all !!!!!!!
Remember the DP benchmark that we did on DP 5.01 .....
Using multiple modulo's ?????
I have installed DP 5.1 on my G5 and my Mac Mini intel duo ...
I did the benchmark testing ......on both ....

G5 2 x 1.8 Ghz PPC 900 Mhz bussing 15 modulo's
Mac Mini 2 x 1.6 Ghz Intel 667 Mhz bussing 12 modulo's

2 gigs of ram on both ....


Aramis

smidijack - I did not intend to attack anyone personally. In hind sight, I understand that my post could have been taken that way. So, apologies for that.

It just kind of get's a bug up my a$$ when I see vague posts like that with no qualification, no discussion of the user's system specs or configuration or any indication that the person is posting here trying to seek a resolution. As Frodo pointed out, if you are seeing problems with DP and want to try and find a resolution, that's great and that is why this forum is here. But, in that case, please post your problems, post your configurations and maybe someone here can help you out - maybe they can point you to a tweak that needs to be made in your system files or preferences or audiomidi setup or any number of things. But when you come here and say "DP runs like crap" and "I'm switching to Logic. Bye Bye" without any explanation of what problems you are actually talking about, well....what do you expect anyone to do? No one can offer you any advice or help with vague posts like that. If you have already decided that DP is crap and that no one here can be of any help, then go ahead and switch to Logic, but there's no reason to clog up the board with noise like that. Sorry for referring to you as a troll, but when someone comes in with a single post just saying "this sucks, I'm outta here", that's the impression it leaves me with.

Anywho....back to the discussion.

Does anyone have any indication that DP 5.1 has improved VI performance latency at all?

Shooshie wrote:

carrythebanner wrote:When seeing discussions on the "sound" of DAWs, I think of three things:

1.) Bob Katz's explanation of word length issues: it's both the biggest and smallest issue at hand. If you've taken care of every other possible consideration in your audio production environment, then it's a big deal; if not, well then, it's not. I'm guessing most people (myself included) fall into the latter category, and hence the minute sonic imprint your DAW directly has on the mix is not a significant factor when compared to A/D and D/A converters, cables & wiring, acoustic treatment, proper calibration, etc..
2.) An article in Tape Op where the interviewee (I can't remember who offhand, but I think it was in the May/June issue this year) said, "You go and you move the snare mic 1/4 of an inch, and you've just made a bigger difference to your sound than the difference between analog tape & Pro Tools" (paraphrased).
3.) That kid in high school who always talked about guitars, but never talked about playing the guitar. (This is not meant to be a personal jab at anyone, so please don't take it that way.)

My feelings exactly. With emphasis on #3.
Shooshie

You beat me to it, Shoosh; carrythebanner said it well, methinks.

Bongo Man wrote:I know it's not the proper engineer answer, but my opinion is "so what".

all marshall amps sound different, and more importantly everybody's stereo sounds different. anything that I have to do a blind test to tell the difference isn't worth my time worrying about. is that how you spell "worrying"? looks funny.

people seem to think that if you can tell the difference between 2 things it is somehow significant, and that one is "better" than the other. I find the that GENERALLY, not in all cases, the people who worry about this the most are the people who make the least interesting recordings.

Couldn't agree more.
The required environments for many of these differences to be heard are either well beyond what most of us can provide, or the differences themselves are so subtle, well, I couldn't care less either.

Repeat after me, then apply in minimal doses when afflicted:
"Bits, shmits, sample-rate, shmample-rate".

Frodo wrote:according to e'loo, there is a preference that lets the user set which code will be compiled for use (either, or, or both)-- so I've got to assume that it installs both.

Hey just to clarify -- I was talking about a developer using Apple's XCODE tools choosing what processor to compile his or her program for --

For an end user like you and me, it should be seemless and invisible. We don't have to set anything. . .

--

Not to careen even further OT, but I had to share.....I won't post verbatim because Apple has a nasty gram on their site about copyrights for their forums, but....

I was looking through the Logic forums, and there are several posts from die-hard Logic users who admit that for audio functions, including audio editing, Logic is not the best app to choose, and a few even specifically recommend that if someone is primarly looking for an audio recording DAW, then DP is a better choice than Logic. Now, when talking about VI performance or MIDI, their opinions differ, but I just thought that was very enlightened, especially from the horse's mouth as such.

dougieb wrote:I don't think its running under emulation for real (I checked the version # just to be sure though).

<SNIP>

It is just unreal how inefficient DP seems to be. I can't imagine anyone saying that there is speed increase... makes me wonder what they were using before (G3-350's anyone?).

Dougieb I wonder about your configuration. I think you need to call MOTU and tell them your results. Because it just doesnt sound right.

While I onlyl have a G4 I am seeing improvements in performance w 5.1. It defies logic (no pun intended) that MOTU would release a universal binary that would perform so poorly.

So PLEASE call MOTU and tell them what you are experiencing. BTW it seems to be easier to get them in the morning before the Californians have woken up.

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