Black Lion MOTU Interface Modifications

[Jidis]

will they simply send you another unit sending you back to square one?

It may be worth requesting that they (BlackLion) consider expanding the mod offer a bit, if enough people are into it. They sound as if they probably know a lot about the "guts" of the products they enhance, to maybe have an idea of what some other "fragile" areas might be, and do some mechanical or electrical changes to protect them. It would be cool to not only have a fine-tuned unit that you really liked, but also sort of an "invincible" one at that. May even be worth their purchasing a bulk of cool looking LCD's, or having some small, custom "control pot" boards printed,etc. A crazy looking screen would also sort of visually brand them as "enhanced" units.

BTW- Some of the rec.audio.pro people, who had once tried to analyze the innards of the 3630, noticed lots of critical stuff in the power supply circuitry, etc., and probably could have predicted some of the problem areas (beyond just the signal path). I'm sure B.L. is the same way. - and no, I'm not comparing this hardware to a 3630

I still don't think the consideration of having to send back a failed piece of rack hardware, after a 90-day warranty, is all that large of an issue beyond the MOTU community. I've never really worried about it with my other stuff, even when it was several years old, and the repair fees wouldn't likely be much more than MOTU's replacement, should the unlikely occur. Plus, I'd be getting back a unit that I personally had purchased and looked after, and also could be confident that restoring it to an "original state", wouldn't leave me with any circuitry which may still be susceptible to any known or common problems later on. With other interfaces, my more significant long-term fear is just in having the driver support drop off while I'm still using it, and there are a few other companies who have a bad rep there as well.

Take Care,

George

PS- Here's a sort of cruel but funny usenet quote I read the other night (I guess the replacement fees have gone up) :

"Looking at their repair policy, it makes sense that they wouldn't
bother diagnosing anything - in favor of charging you 50 bucks for a
refurb, no matter what was wrong with the unit. This only backfires
on them if people make their returns un-refurbishable. Not that I'm
saying you should do that..."

[iMAS]

Just read this thread today and had never heard of blacklion. Well, I'm sold. I definetly want to get my hd192 modified now. But I'm going to email them and ask them why they don't upgrade the clocks in the hd192 unit....because I'm sure that'll improve the unit even more. Maybe ask them if they could fix those noisy fans while they're at it.

[davidj]

how does the 828 mk2 with the mod compare with RME-fireface 800?

anyone?

thanks,
david

[iMAS]

how does the 828 mk2 with the mod compare with RME-fireface 800?

anyone?

thanks,
david

This doesn't answer your question but according to blacklion (if you go to their site)...it uses the same "Asahi Kasei's (AKM) converters, which are the same converters used by Apogee, RME, and others." The weak links are the opamps and the clock which is what they upgrade.
Blacklion has audio samples of before and after mods of the Motu Traveler. I just finished checking them out...well, there's definetly a very noticeable improvement in sound. For around $350, it's totally worth it imo.

I did some research and found that AKM makes quite a few a/d and d/a converter chips w/ varying levels of specs. Apogee probably uses akm's higher end chips. Not sure which one's motu uses though.

[davidj]

thanks for the info...perhaps I'll ask them...?
David

[PG]

how does the 828 mk2 with the mod compare with RME-fireface 800?

anyone?

thanks,
david

Blacklion has audio samples of before and after mods of the Motu Traveler. I just finished checking them out...well, there's definetly a very noticeable improvement in sound. For around $350, it's totally worth it imo.

I did some research and found that AKM makes quite a few a/d and d/a converter chips w/ varying levels of specs. Apogee probably uses akm's higher end chips. Not sure which one's motu uses though.

You can get a Fireface or ULN2 for the same money as a modified Traveller. Makes better sense to me.

[electropoet]

i know this is a basic question, but...can someone explain the benefits of the clock mod. If I don't really use the digital ins/outs or any word clock...is that mod even necessary? I just use the analog in and outs from my 2408 and 24 i/o...i would think the clock wouldn't make a difference...and so lets say it does...if the 2408 is the master...would it make any difference to update the clock of the 24 i/o. Thanks. Scott

[Resonant Alien]

You can get a Fireface or ULN2 for the same money as a modified Traveller. Makes better sense to me.

A new Traveler is $849 plus the $365 mod would be $1215. A new RME Fireface is $1499, so there is about $300 difference.

[davidj]

if you can buy a USED Traveller for around $550 or 600 tops...
then it's much less expensive to go with the Black Lion upgrade, versus the RME Fireface800.

BUT.....doesn't the RME have some better features than the 828/Traveller? I don't know about this - anyone out there who knows better?

Also - does the RME work well with DP?

David

[electropoet]

i answered my own question...i was getting confused with word clock and time code...of course a good clock would improve sound quality...i might just upgrade the 2408 and leave the 24 i/o since its just got my synths plugged into it. scott

[yaking]

I have a 24 i/o+2408 mk3+MTP AV on one computer. And seperate Travelers on individual computers. The sheer act of using an Apogee Big Ben as the master clock for all of the units increased the clarity of the midrange SIGNIFCANTLY. And, testing the clocks built into all of these MOTU units reveals a lot of jitter! That is their only "achilles heel". Jitter is like watching a movie where the frames are not moving by at a constant rate. And when cascading/mixing several digital units together, there is no other professional method for "locking up".

I happen to be a multiple Synclavier user and let me tell you, after you record on a Direct to Disk, EVERYTHING sounds terrible; except, MOTU hardware and software is bar none the best sounding investment I've made since. For a reasonable price, you get fantastic sound, value, RELIABILITY and support (from the rep). And the math in DP is definitely better than any other DAW currently on the market. I highly recommend getting the clock modification or using a professional external master clock. You have no idea what you are missing!

And BTW, op-amp (operational amplifier) upgrades are very common and have been around for decades used synthesizers, reverbs, mixing boards, etc. I'm looking to do the same output mods on my racks once my main client goes on tour. It all boils down to the reputation of the service technician!

I appreciate this forum and am trying to spread the good word about MOTU. Honestly, they are the lifeline in my studio.

Brandon
Yaking Cat Music Studios
yakingcat.com

[Larry Sheehan]

I'd like to test the clock on my HD192...can you explain how you did it?

[iMAS]

Good News for Motu Hd 192 owners. I just got an email back from Blacklion...and they WILL be doing clock upgrades for the HD192 units "soon." No specific dates at this moment though. Can't wait to get mine done !!!!

...oh, and if you request for them to do something about those noisy fans, they'll fix that too (if you're not the DIY types).

[gearboy]

So tell me, which would be a better investment:

Picking up a second MOTU 828mkII or Traveler and getting it modded by Black Lion for Clock and Analog i/o, or picking up a Big Ben? Is the clock upgrade AS GOOD AS running the master clock in the Big Ben?

Seems like my weak link is clock & front end. The BL mod seems like it would cure this problem for very little cash (a lot less than a Big Ben). I have a mint w/warranty M-Audio FW1814 that I am going to sell to pay for the mod. I would definitely consider upgrading two MOTU units to have a backup in case one goes down, but just one at first so that I can A/B the differences.

Jeff

[yaking]

Regarding the testing of clocks and whether or not to buy a master clock.

Sorry that this isn't going to be much help, but since I knew that ALL digital devices have some amount of jitter (some better than others) AND (more importantly) all of the Travelers (and other digital gear) gets connected via ADAT optical to the 2408 mk3, there was no other way but to buy a master clock.

Now sometimes you can get away with cascading digital units into eachother with the device at the end of the chain receivng the transmitted sync. However, when I used to use the ADAT for extra inputs with other MOTU cards, there was always clicking and popping using the MTP AV as the source with the ADAT link control cable. Just too much variation in the clock signal.

So once I got the Big Ben, I outputed every device's clock output into the clock input of the Big Ben and watched the signal "float around". The fact that the MTP AV is advertised as a master clock is pretty much silly, btw.

I guess for the price point, you are really getting a bargain. But as with all things in life, nothing comes without a price.

Now I looked at other "sound cards" and have owned or used pretty much EVERYTHING on the market. Problem is, building a professional sounding studio for myself as a composer/producer where I would never have to leave my place for any reason (except large orchestra). We are talking hundreds of recorded tracks, soft-synths, MIDI and real-time external routings to outboard reverbs, live session musicians, etc. MOTU was and is the only company that can pulll this off as good as my Synclavier.

So is it worth getting the mod or the Big Ben? Well, it is simple. If you have 3 or more digital devices (sound cards, processors, etc.), then yes. If you have only two devices, then at least ONE of them should have the clock mod to act as the host.

Remember, you need ONE master clock in the studio for everything. And if you plug your Traveler into a 2408, then the Traveler would be the master clock with the 2408 listening to the clock. However, if your rig ever changes or you take only the 2408 to a live gig, then that also will need the clock mod (or the Big Ben for instance).

The idea is getting as little to or no phase differences between the original digital signal and the output. This is measured using tools manufactured by Audio Precision which I don't have access to. Doing some reasearch into the matter, it can be measured across a broad spectrum. And there are many ways to introduce jitter. Point of fact, master clocks like to be turned on and left on. That way they have a chance to stabilize, reach operating temperature and ignore recent changes. Bad power in the studio will exacerbate the problem. The specs on Black Lion's webpage look respectable.

Funny thing is, users will spend tons of money on Monster Power and Monster cables but fail to realize that the poor grounding of their home, the outdated fusebox and rat-nibbled electrical wiring, the design of the internals of their studio gear, whether a sound card is located inside the computer and the interference it receives, cascading power strips, and the quality of power supplies all makes a huge difference on sound.

After doing this professionally since 1991, I got to tell you, just good routings and cable, carefull consideration in purchases, spreading equipment across multiple legs of power (different circuits), and proper layout (due to induction in sensitive pieces of gear) makes a world of distance. For instance, putting a guitar through a snake to reach an amplifier may yield a less interference-prone signal from all of the extra shielding, but running a good belden heavy-duty guitar cord sounds more "open" even though there is more noise.

Same goes for recording into the MOTU. I have a dead/dry recording room and some nice heavy cable going into the MOTU products and record at 24 bit, 44.1 and use almost no processing whatsoever. Using DP and custom programmed DSP/Mastering/Conversion to bounce down with, just sounds amazing!

I know you asked me the time and here am I telling you how to build a clock... But maybe these ideas will also help you in getting more "air" when recording as it helped me.

I'm so glad this board exists. Another great asset to my studio!

Brandon
Yaking Cat Music Studios
yakingcat.com