MOTUnation.com

A nice article on DP10 with some interesting conjecture. I didn't pickup that DP10's approach to Clips is different, possibly more flexible than Live. ...unlike Live, DP10 Clips queue up like Tetris.

http://cdm.link/2019/02/dp10-adds-clip- ... EwVaeJz2nM

toodamnhip wrote:

FMiguelez wrote:

joelmusic wrote: One cool new CC editing feature is: there's an option for when you nudge or quantize MIDI note data, the accompanying CC data moves with it! I like that one a lot... not sure how you adjust the parameters of _what_ gets moved - will have to see, but it's a great idea...

At this point I would be happy just to see that MOTU FINALLY fixed the CC and audio automation mess we've always had when cutting, pasting and snipping tracks with automation (the god-damned unwanted and idiotic ramps).

But without that fix, this upgrade would be mostly meaningless to me, as that behaviour is kindergarten-level that has no place in a professional DAW.

I wouldn't be surprised if GarageBand does all that much better than current DP!

Could any Garage Band user confirm this, please?

I feel your pain brother. I wish there were more of us posting about this. I think there are user out there who have been hit with this issue, but they don’t seem to post very often. If there are not “more of us”, then then are 10s of 1000s of DP users out there who’s automation is drifting throughout a song, without them being aware of it. All they have to do is paste a chorus or verse that has automation in it, around in a song. And this will happen. Once in awhile someone chimes in in support of this issue, ( I appreciate it). But many say things like "I really don’t automate much so I haven’t experienced that” or..”I don’t work the way you do so I haven’t seen that”........What? No one automates? No one pastes automated sections around? No one cares is a guitar volume slowly drifts up or down for 50 bars? I have to keep telling myself I am not a martian. I am not doing anything weird. Its basic cut and paste of audio. What am I missing? This is important....

I get that this is an issue for you, but since it's the default behavior, and there are going to be times when one would want this behavior, (there's two possibilities for this, ramping up or down to the new value, or static value then new value) so for the abrupt new value isn't it possible to copy just the automation? (not in front of DP right now) So if the verse volume is at cc 100 and you have a break where it hits 128, you copy paste the cc100 automation right before the break so the ramp is going from 100 to 128 in a quarter of a second?

Michael Canavan wrote: I get that this is an issue for you, but since it's the default behavior, and there are going to be times when one would want this behavior,

Really?
Can you provide an example where you'd want random and arbitrary ramps to appear in all your tracks for all your automated parameters every time you paste or snip?

You have exactly zero control as to what happens when you paste or snip tracks with automation. Every time it is different, depending on what you have on the source track and what automation is (or isn't) in the target track(s).

So no. It's not even a "behaviour" because what happens any time you make time-related edits is anybody's guess.

It's a part of the program that wasn't thought thoroughly when it was first programmed more than at least 12 years ago (the age of the bug/issue, back since DP4 when I first noticed it).

Michael Canavan wrote: (there's two possibilities for this, ramping up or down to the new value, or static value then new value) so for the abrupt new value isn't it possible to copy just the automation? (not in front of DP right now) So if the verse volume is at cc 100 and you have a break where it hits 128, you copy paste the cc100 automation right before the break so the ramp is going from 100 to 128 in a quarter of a second?

In page 14 I cite a thread where everything is explained in detail.
Here it is:

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=65941&start=195#p560686

Also, in that same page, and the cited thread, I've provided examples you can follow so you try all that automation stuff for yourself with specific steps showing specific issues.

I've been watching these discussions and as reported, don't do ANY copy paste of controller data. But out of curiosity, I created a few MIDI and audio tracks with controller data and dragged the sections. That seemed to work fine. So is it only when copy/pasting? Or do you also see this when dragging sections on top of each other? I don't have time to make another sequence right now and if the answer is yes, I'll try it your way (just not at Burger King).

FMiguelez wrote: Can you provide an example where you'd want random and arbitrary ramps to appear in all your tracks for all your automated parameters every time you paste or snip?

It's arbitrary, but not random. I draws a straight line between the points on either side of the gap. The alternative, vertical ramps at one of the two points, is also arbitrary, although it might be a reasonable starting point for drawing in whatever you want. Not obvious to me that the vertical ramp is a better starting point in all cases than a smooth transition. Perhaps, once again, we need a preference.

FMiguelez wrote: In page 14 I cite a thread where everything is explained in detail.
Here it is:

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=65941&start=195#p560686

Also, in that same page, and the cited thread, I've provided examples you can follow so you try all that automation stuff for yourself with specific steps showing specific issues.

Also, also, on that page I ask: What makes you think there hasn't been improvements in this area in DP10? It appears to me there has - though we can't know the extent. Bug fixes that simply make DP work 'correctly', as defined by their competitors, don't usually make it to What's New press releases....well, sometimes they do, but not always.

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:I've been watching these discussions and as reported, don't do ANY copy paste of controller data. But out of curiosity, I created a few MIDI and audio tracks with controller data and dragged the sections. That seemed to work fine. So is it only when copy/pasting? Or do you also see this when dragging sections on top of each other? I don't have time to make another sequence right now and if the answer is yes, I'll try it your way (just not at Burger King).

Ok, since you're willing to try...

Over the length of a track, draw many different automation parameters. Or simply take a bunch of snapshots of a plugin with different settings over the track, so you get lots of points, lines and shapes.

Then quickly start snipping regions of time from the track (cutting points, in the middle and end of ramps, etc.). Observe what happens and how DP deals with joining parameters from the snipped regions. You'll clearly expect something else.

Also, try pasting that track over the last third part of another track with no automation, and over the last half of another track with the SAME automation parameters, and then over another track with DIFFERENT parameters (so you cover enough bases to see different cases).

Like what you see?

Keep in mind this one test-track represents one of the dozens of other tracks in a normal mix where we move stuff around and see this happening.

=========

For thoroughness, also try it with a couple of MIDI tracks. Just make sure there are 3-4 parameters at least, with different shapes.


Sometimes, 100% dependent on what automation you have there, and how it is (or isn't) ankled to the track (with actual points), you may see no ramps, just a few, or you may see plenty.
But one thing is for sure: You must babysit them and check them all every time. Oh, and fix them as you see them... and HOPEFULLY you don't miss some and have your short-version mixes sound different than the original!

bayswater wrote:

FMiguelez wrote: Can you provide an example where you'd want random and arbitrary ramps to appear in all your tracks for all your automated parameters every time you paste or snip?

It's arbitrary, but not random. I draws a straight line between the points on either side of the gap. The alternative, vertical ramps at one of the two points, is also arbitrary, although it might be a reasonable starting point for drawing in whatever you want. Not obvious to me that the vertical ramp is a better starting point in all cases than a smooth transition. Perhaps, once again, we need a preference.

I called it random because I never can predict what it's going to happen and how many and where ramps will be formed.

With the algorithm I've been citing, that preference would be covered, and this big mess would be fixed.

BTW, what were those Logic pics meant to show Bays? It's been such a long thread that I'm not sure if you're talking about this automation issue or the other one (the snapshots issue).

BTW, thanks for detailing your test some pages ago. Even by doing what you did, I still get the behaviour I've been talking about. It really goes on my nerves when some of this stuff is system/user dependent.

I've been meaning to finally upload a video documenting all this stuff. I already have some of it, but since DP10 is coming soon, I prefer to wait a few days and test this with the newest version (as well as some other worrying DSP-related "funny things" I've been finding) .

Hey, perhaps MOTU did fix all the issues and all this is just moot?

dix wrote:Also, also, on that page I ask: What makes you think there hasn't been improvements in this area in DP10?

I did answer you there!
I said nothing makes me think they fixed it or didn't fix it (that's why I was asking about it).
And then I said I was just "howling at the moon to make it come true" in DP10.

But I damn sure expect and hope to see it fixed once we get DP10

FMiguelez wrote:

dix wrote:Also, also, on that page I ask: What makes you think there hasn't been improvements in this area in DP10?

I did answer you there!
I said nothing makes me think they fixed it or didn't fix it (that's why I was asking about it).
And then I said I was just "howling at the moon to make it come true" in DP10.

But I damn sure expect and hope to see it fixed once we get DP10

I thought some new info might have come to light. That would explain why time is again being spent discussing, in exhaustive detail, an issue that might no longer exist.

FMiguelez wrote:BTW, what were those Logic pics meant to show Bays? It's been such a long thread that I'm not sure if you're talking about this automation issue or the other one (the snapshots issue).

I was responding to the argument that "other DAWs" do this "properly". Looks to me like Logic does it exactly the same way as DP.

As someone pointed out, we don't know yet whether DP10 addresses this problem. But you might recall that somewhere around 9.51 or 9.52, MOTU did add a snap that happens when you drag one automation point to the time location of another. Perhaps this was their answer to the complaints in this forum. Using this additional snap, in theory, you can remove the ramps that DP current creates when you copy automation, by dragging the last automation point in the original automation to the first automation point in the copy (assuming the copy is later in time than the original). When you hit the snap point and release the mouse, what was a ramp becomes a flat line and a vertical ramp at the start of the automation copy.

What remains to be seen it what happens with the newly automated automation data and whether and how that changes this behaviour

dix wrote:

FMiguelez wrote: In page 14 I cite a thread where everything is explained in detail.
Here it is:

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=65941&start=195#p560686

Also, in that same page, and the cited thread, I've provided examples you can follow so you try all that automation stuff for yourself with specific steps showing specific issues.

Also, also, on that page I ask: What makes you think there hasn't been improvements in this area in DP10? It appears to me there has - though we can't know the extent. Bug fixes that simply make DP work 'correctly', as defined by their competitors, don't usually make it to What's New press releases....well, sometimes they do, but not always.

The automation ramping STILL EXISTS in DP 10. At least the versions at Namm. I tested DP 10 at NAMM...the ramping has not been fixed. I have filed reports and had great assistance with reports from our great guru Matt La Point, so I am sure they finally know about the issue. But whether they have time to fix such a thing before the first release? I am skeptical, but hopeful. gain, the issue remains in the DP 10s they had at NAMM.

As far as anyone saying this may be a useful thing to have happen? No way man, one cannot compare the few instances where a ramp would pave “useful” to the day to day need to ACCURATELY paste automation.

And to another user, it does not matter if you drag data or paste. Also, this does not happen in MIDI MIDI works fine, MIDI does not ramp.

And to those who have mentioned placing automation just before a paste...Well, that IS what we we do. But what sounds good “on paper”, is much different in the real world when you have tons of tracks, tons of automation, and need to copy and past all over in a song. I already have a whole procedure in place to “prep for pasting” once I get the intro through-chorus 1 mixed right in a song. But as FM says, even that does not handle things. It may even avoid issues in the first few pastes, but it creates a ton of automation log jam right before a section such as a chorus, and when you start working fast and pasting things around all over the place, like in the real world of making a mix, automation inevitably becomes a hot mess, resulting in ramping and requiring one go under the hood and pull out the "automation weeds” lol..Menaing, manually checking 100s of parameters and fixing ramped lines...Yikes! So anyone who speaks of “you just need to do this or draw a line here or there”?...Well, the advise and attempt at help IS appreciated. But whoever thinks its simple just hasn’t done it. But thanks for anyone who is chiming in, this issue needs attention.

toodamnhip wrote:The automation ramping STILL EXISTS in DP 10. At least the versions at Namm. I tested DP 10 at NAMM...the ramping has not been fixed. I have filed reports and had great assistance with reports from our great guru Matt La Point, so I am sure they finally know about the issue. But whether they have time to fix such a thing before the first release? I am skeptical, but hopeful. gain, the issue remains in the DP 10s they had at NAMM.

There you have it. Since it’s not actually part of DP10, I’m thinking the issue could use it’s own thread m’be....?

dix wrote:

toodamnhip wrote:The automation ramping STILL EXISTS in DP 10. At least the versions at Namm. I tested DP 10 at NAMM...the ramping has not been fixed. I have filed reports and had great assistance with reports from our great guru Matt La Point, so I am sure they finally know about the issue. But whether they have time to fix such a thing before the first release? I am skeptical, but hopeful. gain, the issue remains in the DP 10s they had at NAMM.

There you have it. Since it’s not actually part of DP10, I’m thinking the issue could use it’s own thread m’be....?

There have been other issues in this thread besides this one, and they have not been relagated to another thread. I feel that by allowing an Open discussion, MOTU can
see user concerns about features related to DP10. All the DP 10 adds are great, love em’. Now let’s get basic cut and paste of automation into a workable form. And I'd really love it if this was not considered some sort of esoteric functionality. Imagine if this happened in "Word”? You pasted text in paragraph 2 and it changed paragraph 1. I know, I know, this aint no word processing program. But the NEEDED functionality is the same.

Great that Matt et al "finally", definitely know about the issue, 'Hipster.

Well done, mate; I know you've tried your darnedest for a long time to get the message through.