LOGIC STUDIO AND LOGIC 8 JUST OUT!!

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Releaux
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Post by Releaux »

This has been a very interesting thread to read.

I'm not sure about the theory that Apple is aiming at Avid/Digi necessarily. Everything that Apple does is designed to sell Apple hardware, whether it's a Mac, iPod, or iPhone. If Apple has been investing heavily in creative software packages (and making them stupidly affordable over the last few years, I suspect it's because they had high concern that existing packages from eMagic, Digi, Motu, and Adobe either weren't paying enough attention to the Mac market (thus contributing to lower sales) or that the products offered had enough problems that they didn't provide a compelling alternative to Windows apps.

(Please note: this is all speculation and I'm not singling any company out).

The reason I don't think Apple is necessarily targeting the Avid/Digi crowd is that the industry that buys into PT doesn't really consider price much of an issue. Price is important, but stability, quality, familiarity, and workflow throughput are far more important when working with multi-million dollar properties like major label releases and films. PT enjoys success because it's relatively stable, and continues to reap the benefits of its early reputation for quality.

Most importantly though, PT shares Windows' key asset: everybody uses it because it's what everybody's using. The fact that there are better and/or cheaper alternatives isn't always the main consideration. Apple's Keynote kicks ass and I get compliments on my presentations, but people always want me to give them an exported copy in PowerPoint format. :roll: There's a reason OMF export is important.

Instead, I think Apple is focusing on retaining/regaining it's position as the platform of choice for creation of content, especially for the entry-level, hobbyist, prosumer, or indie crowds. If I have a $50,000 budget for my indie flick and can get a Mac with software to edit the film and score the soundtrack for under $5k (that would have had a total cost closer to $20k a few years ago), I'll probably choose that over the Pro Tools system.

But this is a MOTU board and I'm actually writing this because I wanted to point out a few things that have been touched on, but that I think are very important to MOTU and DP's future. Protools can probably weather a value-laden package like Logic Studio - MOTU may not be in such a good position. At least, MOTU software may not. I suspect that MOTU has an opportunity to remain in that sweet spot between low-end budget hardware and Apogee/Digi stuff. Hardware probably has better margins for them as well.

My first MIDI sequencer was on the Commodore 64. I then moved to Dr. T's KCS on an Amiga, then to Studio Vision Pro, then (just a couple of months before SVP imploded) completely revamped my studio to all MOTU hardware and software. I tend to be "loyal" though that isn't necessarily the right word - I find something that works and stick with it. DP was far and away the most musical, useful, and affordable DAW I could find. It was a fantastic value.

But over the last 5 years or so, it's gotten harder and harder to stick with MOTU for me. The company had never been overly communicative, but it seemed to shut down almost entirely. Then I started having hardware problems with my 24i/o and MTP-AVs. By itself, this wasn't a problem - these things happen - it was trying to deal with MOTU that was a problem. It was like pulling teeth to get an RMA. Then I had to send multiple messages to get a status update. One time, they even forgot they had one of my units!

I'm not a fanboy, but I'm not overly fickle either. You have to do a lot to get me to the point where I start thinking of changing platforms or switching brands. Unfortunately, MOTU has had me thinking that way for over a year now, and the Logic Studio release doesn't do anything to help that. If I pick up the package (and I probably will) it won't be to immediately replace DP as my DAW of choice. But my increasing familiarity with it (especially if the interface is as improved as it looks) makes it easier and easier for me to stop using DP in time.

As I see it, MOTU has a few serious problems:

1. Their position as the best DAW value is (at least for now) gone. They have to either improve quality, lower price, or increase value (if not all three).

2. MOTU's customer service either needs to step up to the plate, or there need to be some serious purges in Massachusetts. If I had to guess, I'd say that the purges need to happen pretty high up the food chain because there's no way they could have degenerated to their current levels if the top held customer service as a priority.

How many times have you seen people on this board griping that they never get an answer, or that they're getting a busy signal from the tech support line. A BUSY SIGNAL! It didn't take long for me to figure out that this board (and before that the mailing list or newsgroups) were much better and faster for getting tech support.

And the web-based system is, at best, a pain to use. Why do I have to register hardware for MOTU to even open a ticket. It's HARDWARE! Software registration I can understand, but it's not likely that anyone's trying to pay $75 to have their pirated hardware repaired. Similarly, why doesn't MOTU know that I own software that I purchased directly from them? (NOTE: These are merely rhetorical/illustrative examples. We don't need to discuss them in this thread and I don't want to be responsible for a threadjack. :) )

You can get away with crappy tech support and customer service, at least for awhile, if you're the overwhelming leader in a space. MOTU doesn't have that luxury.

3. MOTU needs to make immediate efforts to keep its core user base happy. This has already been discussed in this thread, but it's a lot cheaper to keep an existing customer than to find a new one. They need to capitalize on the fact that most of us really do love DP. It's comfortable, in many ways it's the best of its kind, and we all have a lot of time and money invested in it.

But that goodwill only goes so far. When you're ignoring the people who are most likely to provide good word of mouth, there's something wrong.

4. MOTU needs to do some serious evaluation of its product line and figure out what its core competencies are. I don't think it's going to have the luxury of having fingers in lots of different pies with products like Logic Studio or Apple's new relationship with Apogee. And once it figures out what it should be doing, it needs to get some marketing people in line with its objectives. It's asinine that the V3HD isn't even mentioned on the MOTU web site.

5. MOTU needs to decide if having DP remain a Mac-only product is still in its best interest. I know this is close to heresy for me to even mention, but how many Mac-only companies survive when Apple enters their software space, especially when it's a full suite of applications selling at the same price as a single piece of MOTU software? This may be absolutely the wrong move, but it's something that needs to be looked at.

6. (Optional) Lose the dongles. They make a lot of us mad. Go back to an unobtrusive serial number scheme. In defense of your dongle choice, however, at least you chose a popular one instead of something entirely proprietary like the XSKey. Ever notice that's an anagram for KY Sex? Dealing with dongles makes me feel like they forgot the KY.


I know some of these things aren't pleasant to contemplate (especially given that last analogy), but business decisions sometimes need to be ruthless if the company is to survive, much less prosper. Despite the overall tone of this post, I'm really pulling for MOTU in all of this. I like having Unicorns in my rack. I love DP. My studio sounds great, runs well for the most part, and I'm very pleased with the results I get out of it.

For that matter, I wouldn't have taken the time and thought write this if I didn't want MOTU to do well and for DP to remain a major player in the DAW segment.

But as a business owner who relies, in part, on MOTU hardware and software to make my living, I have to look seriously at MOTU's corporate behavior, determine if I think that behavior bodes well for its long term survival, and then make platform decisions based on that. At the moment, I'll be buying L8 Studio as a hedge.
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Post by James Steele »

Releaux wrote:5. MOTU needs to decide if having DP remain a Mac-only product is still in its best interest.
Agreed... in one of my longer missives which I later deleted as I thougth this whole topic has become laborious, I suggested they might want to look at it since their years of Mac loyalty have been repayed as they have.
6. (Optional) Lose the dongles. They make a lot of us mad. Go back to an unobtrusive serial number scheme. In defense of your dongle choice, however, at least you chose a popular one instead of something entirely proprietary like the XSKey.
You lost me here. MOTU products use the iLok which is as popular as it gets.
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Post by thelonecynic »

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:
iMAS wrote:
dougieb wrote: One thing for sure... MOTU had better do a massive price drop to $399 in addition to bundling MSI, Ethno, MX4 and MachV II, then they had better get down in front of the diety of their choice and pray/suck/cry or they are dead dead dead.
Motu's a small company, if they do that, they will also be dead.
I agree. Bundling all their software to one package in not a realistic business plan for MOTU. Besides, I doubt there is anything in L8 that can come close to M5.
Then bundle them with DP as MAS only versions, just as Studio Instruments are Logic only. MOTU needs to at least match the competition if not outdo them. More than likely, they will not survive anyway because they would no longer be a viable option when for the same price I can get a COMPLETE package with Logic Studio. DP as it is right now is severely lacking. Before the Logic Studio announcement, I would have been fine if all that MOTU did for DP6 was make Quickscribe a professional notation facility. But after, I will settle for nothing less than the same Logic Studio facilities. I'd rather not switch, as I've made my home with DP for the last 7 years. But people are known to move and migrate.
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Post by Shooshie »

Releaux, I think you and I are pretty much in agreement about everything you said. I'm not keeping score, so if there is some variance between us, it's nothing worthy of argument. I do find their tech support to be better than the reputation paints it, though I've heard the "we can't duplicate your bug," and "haven't heard of that one" way too many times.

I don't think MOTU is in jeopardy, though. Lots of people will buy Logic Studio just for the thrill of owning that much technology for less cash than a cross-country plane trip. But those same people will begin to look at other alternatives as they learn the business. Everyone does. The question always nags: "am I using the best software? Could this be holding back my work?" And there will always be a small but steady stream of people trying out DP and staying, keeping Logic handy for certain tasks. I foresee a future where there is less brand loyalty and more natural crossover in a day's work. Maybe we can convince MOTU, if not Apple, to create some conversion utilities.

Hmmm... Let me repeat that. I think that may be one of the best ideas to emerge from this thread: MOTU, please create conversion utilities so that you and we have a better chance of thriving in a Logic-dominated music world.

Thanks for the missive. I read every word and enjoyed it.


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Post by Releaux »

You lost me here. MOTU products use the iLok which is as popular as it gets.
No no... that was my point. At least they picked a popular dongle to use.

I was irritated when I got my two latest Arturia VIs - I didn't realize they used a dongle. I was more irritated to find that it was a syncrosoft dongle. I don't have any other software that uses it. Then I had the Logic proprietary dongle on top of all of that.


Shooshie, thanks for the response. For a long time I'd never had a significant problem with MOTU tech support either... but it's been my experience that things have gone downhill a lot in the last five years or so, and that was more to the point of my post - it's MOTU as a company that I'm worried about more than any particular product of theirs.

Incidentally, I touched on this in my post above, but I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all of you "power users" for making this board such a fantastic resource. I probably would have bailed on DP a couple years back without it.
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Post by kelldammit »

Shooshie wrote:MOTU, please create conversion utilities so that you and we have a better chance of thriving in a Logic-dominated music world.

Shooshie
aaf support. logic does that, as do the steinberg proggies, if i'm not mistaken. tack on edl, and you interoperate with samp/sequioa.
for seamless cross platform support, 32float bwav simply MUST be native.
afaik, logic supports 24bit bwav, but not 32float. get that, and a good bead on the OMF moving target, and you'd be there.

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Post by Timeline »

James Steele wrote:
Releaux wrote:5. MOTU needs to decide if having DP remain a Mac-only product is still in its best interest.
Agreed... in one of my longer missives which I later deleted as I thought this whole topic has become laborious, I suggested they might want to look at it since their years of Mac loyalty have been repayed as they have.
Not sure what your getting at here James. Do you mean by Apple? If so, I agree and why not supply the PC market with software that will increase the user base when now with the "almost PC environment" Apple has shifted to is just a few tweaks away with a good software team.

James you would have to add DP for PC here on your site, hehe. I think it would be very cool and maybe we could finally get DM running under MS. :)

We could buy quad AMD Opitron PC's for like 25c on the dollar compared to Macs and go crazy.

Your board would triple is size and you would have to really rethink donations I think.
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Post by BobK »

The dust in my head is settling. I downloaded and read the PDF overview of Logic Studio, and I'm back to this:

My main concern about Logic Studio is what it might mean for the future of DP. As far as I can tell, there's nothing about the DAW itself that makes it more desirable than DP. The Quick Swipe comping looks great, but that alone wouldn't make me switch. And while I'm concerned that it might threaten the long-term viability of DP, that's not enough reason for me to switch either.

I was initially tempted to get it just to check it out, but I really don't need to - and I could put that money towards something more immediately useful, like a new mic.

For the work I do recording, mixing, and composing, DP works great. There's definitely room for improvement, but I know DP pretty well and enjoy working with it.

I hope MOTU can weather this and keep DP going strong.
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Post by James Steele »

Releaux wrote:
You lost me here. MOTU products use the iLok which is as popular as it gets.
No no... that was my point. At least they picked a popular dongle to use.

I was irritated when I got my two latest Arturia VIs - I didn't realize they used a dongle. I was more irritated to find that it was a syncrosoft dongle. I don't have any other software that uses it. Then I had the Logic proprietary dongle on top of all of that.
Right. Okay... but the thread was about MOTU and your comments made it sound like you were talking about them. MOTU uses iLok and iLok is pretty standard and easy to deal with for the most part.
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Post by James Steele »

Timeline wrote:
James Steele wrote:
Releaux wrote:5. MOTU needs to decide if having DP remain a Mac-only product is still in its best interest.
Agreed... in one of my longer missives which I later deleted as I thought this whole topic has become laborious, I suggested they might want to look at it since their years of Mac loyalty have been repayed as they have.
Not sure what your getting at here James. Do you mean by Apple? If so, I agree and why not supply the PC market with software that will increase the user base when now with the "almost PC environment" Apple has shifted to is just a few tweaks away with a good software team.

James you would have to add DP for PC here on your site, hehe. I think it would be very cool and maybe we could finally get DM running under MS. :)

We could buy quad AMD Opitron PC's for like 25c on the dollar compared to Macs and go crazy.

Your board would triple is size and you would have to really rethink donations I think.
That's what I mean to say. If Apple is going to be in an all out brawl and competing with MOTU, which has been a loyal Apple developer and the gloves are off... then the gloves are off. If it comes down to survival, if I ran MOTU I'd have to be giving serious thought to a Windows version of DP... assuming that once ported DP could compete easily with Sonar, Cubase, and the other Windows DAWs. Frankly, it's a marketer's dream in a way... "FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER... DIGITAL PERFORMER FOR WINDOWS!" You know they'd get a TON of press with a move like that.

That said, I'd also require iLok because Windows piracy is HUGE and if I expended the R&D to make a Windows version there's a good chance it would just get ripped off.

I guess basically MOTU may have to think the unthinkable and debate whether they could kick the crap out of Sonar and the PC DAWs because that's a space that Apple won't compete in and Microsoft can't.

More random thoughts though... if Apple releases OSX for PCs some day then EVEYRTHING changes. Wouldn't it be something if 20 years from now Apple has buried Microsoft? Ding dong the witch is dead... hey wait... there's a NEW witch!
Last edited by James Steele on Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Frodo »

As long as DP is functional and stable on "enough" systems, it's not going anywhere. Stability speaks volumes, as does history-- as long as that good reputation can be sustained. All of these DAWs must also be judged on their own merits, even as much as they might be constructively compared with one another. I mean, even where certain other types of software have been groundbreaking, it doesn't always present itself as the harbinger of doom for existing software. Inasmuch as I'd say DP isn't going anywhere because of L8, I'd also say that PT isn't going anywhere either because of it. VSL was groundbreaking, but that didn't spell the end of EWQLSO, for example. The appearance of DVZ (the new high-end and expensive string library) will likewise appeal to a different cross-section of the market and will do nothing to impact in any appreciable way with VSL or EWQLSO.

What makes L8 significant is that it's been rebuilt from the ground up for OSX. For all the bells and whistles, it's the guts of L8 that will reveal much about how the developers of the OS treat their own developer tools to create an OSX DAW. On that foundation rests the stability of any application.

As for cosmetics and features, nothing in the way of personal preferences has changed. People have always desired features of other apps to be included in DP-- and features of DP to be included in other apps. Such discussions are in perpetuity, and may be secondary to the code rebuild.

Sure, there are some funny things about DP 5.12, but there are funny things about all apps. I don't think it's worth factoring those issues into the bigger picture so much. However it goes that MOTU is able to tidy things up for DP for *its own sake* (and not for the sake of L8's appearance-- or any other app), remains a matter a patience, as it always has.

I pray no one else here goes through what I've been through recently-- or am going through currently, which is very much out of the ordinary... and it's not all Intel related.

If dysfunctions are on the rise, THAT alone will be MOTU's biggest threat because it impacts on current DP users.

Secondary (not unimportant- just secondary) will be the issue of attracting new users with cosmetics. One thing about new users is the unknown factor of which ones among them are "industry" users and which are "independents". (Those are the best terms I can find to avoid "pros" and "hobbyists" which don't do justice to the people using such software.)

I say this is secondary for reasons that do pertain directly to DP, which is why we're here. If the issue is one of a user *switching* DAWs, then the balance of considerations changes.

If the issue is really a matter of getting a better understand of how DAWs work (ought to work) in OSX where DP's quirks are concerned, then watching crash logs and identifying problem files involved in those crashes in DP (such as I've seen in quantity of late) indeed become paramount.
Last edited by Frodo on Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by bayswater »

James Steele wrote:if I ran MOTU I'd have to be giving serious thought to a Windows version of DP if once ported DP could compete easily with Sonar, Cubase, and the other Windows DAWs.
That could be an unhappy event for Mac based users. Steinberg went from a Mac app ported to Windows to a Windows app ported to Mac and it showed in successively worse performance and bugginess.
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Post by Timeline »

bayswater wrote:
James Steele wrote:if I ran MOTU I'd have to be giving serious thought to a Windows version of DP if once ported DP could compete easily with Sonar, Cubase, and the other Windows DAWs.
That could be an unhappy event for Mac based users. Steinberg went from a Mac app ported to Windows to a Windows app ported to Mac and it showed in successively worse performance and bugginess.
Bayswater,they don't have to follow the Steinberg path and could learn from those mistakes.

Anyway James, I'm in on that idea cause we likely won't see MOTU stretch too far given the new price constraints. But, on the other hand, if they decided to go balls to the wall and make the most incredible DAW on MAC ever, they would not only keep the user base in place but add users. Would that be enough? I don't know but their marketing team must be going nuts right now.

MOTU HOW ABOUT A COMMENT FOR US LOWELY HERE IN THE TRENCHES!!!
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Post by emulatorloo »

James Steele wrote:More random thoughts though... if Apple releases OSX for PCs some day then EVEYRTHING changes. Wouldn't it be something if 20 years from now Apple has buried Microsoft? Ding dong the witch is dead... hey wait... there's a NEW witch!
I would go with the Apple Witch over the MS one any day of the week. Apple's GUI people will always be soooooooooo much better than MS's. Say what you may about Jobs' ambition to out Gates gates. I believe he is truly interested in making Apple products be the best in terms of user experience. OTOH MS has never cared anything about quality, consistency or a reasonable UI.

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Post by James Steele »

bayswater wrote:
James Steele wrote:if I ran MOTU I'd have to be giving serious thought to a Windows version of DP if once ported DP could compete easily with Sonar, Cubase, and the other Windows DAWs.
That could be an unhappy event for Mac based users. Steinberg went from a Mac app ported to Windows to a Windows app ported to Mac and it showed in successively worse performance and bugginess.
Well, we're talking all hypothetical here. But I'm saying that if certain conditions existed, and I'm not saying they do, for example:

IF company survival was at stake...
IF Apple seemed unstoppable...
IF there were NO other viable options...

Then MOTU could decide to abandon the Mac platform altogether and just shut it down. Other vendors could decide to do the very same thing and focus on PC hardware and software sales. In a way, this could be interpreted as a very aggressive and monopolistic move on the part of Apple, and honestly if you were a Mac DAW developer and you found yourself in a competition with Apple that was now going from mild to brutal or bordeline unfair, why wouldn't you just say "the hell with Apple."

I have to wonder if Apple has overstepped and will drive developers to Windows and as a result kill off consumer "choices." Heretofore they were competing on features... but now it seems like a price war.

I'm saying that whatever decision MOTU makes for the future, given Apple's actions, those decisions should be made objectively and with no consideration for Apple or the Macintosh platform, because Apple has pretty much now proven that they are no friend of third party developers for their platform, but an aggressive and ruthless competitor.
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