NAMM NEWS - DP 10 - It's Here!

[Michael Canavan]

This item is also of interest:

Overdub recording replaces CC data

When overdub recording continuous controller data, any existing data is replaced to prevent data streams that conflict with each other.

This seems pretty important for recording Mod-wheel moves

That seems useful. I suppose if I had a take with good CC info, and wanted to replace just the notes, I'd need to go to a different track and merge the two.

This one kinda confuses me. I hope it doesn't mean it writes new CC data even if you don't create any new CC data? i.e. you played in notes and mod wheel data, then went back to record new notes on top, but didn't touch the mod wheel. Hopefully it doesn't erase old CC data. Probably doesn't but..

[bayswater]

Seems like a feature they thought Logic users would like, because Logic had this as a feature forever. Before version 8 in Logic IMO it was a lot more useful though, right click called up a contextual pop up of the Tools, so little movement or commands were needed to get all relevant tools.

Exactly my first thought when I read about this "new" feature. It looks pointless at best, and more like a step backwards. I'm hoping when I try it, there's more to it.

[mikehalloran]

I took it to mean the entire UVI-based MOTU instruments (Electric Keys, Symphonic, BPM, etc.). But of course, even that would add up to considerably more than 5GB.

If I remember correctly, Mach 5 came with two sets of sounds, the "Mach 5 sounds" and one that was UVI sounds. Which, again if I remember correctly, felt more like a taster and not very exciting/useful.

http://motu.com/products/software/machfive

A universe A universe of sounds
45 GB of included instruments, loops and phrases

MachFive's signature scripted instruments give you incredibly realistic core instruments that are basic necessities for any studio: drums, bass, guitar, piano, and percussion. But that's just the beginning. MachFive also includes thousands of loops and phrases. From break-beats to mixed choirs, there's an entire universe to explore. MachFive Biosphere™ further broadens your sonic vistas with fresh, rich synth textures that are out of this world. And for the truly adventurous, the Xtreme FX bonus library from UltimateSoundBank.com gives you 5,000 creative sound effects, foley effects, and ambient textures suitable for both music production and sound design.
45 GB of included instruments, loops and phrases

MachFive's signature scripted instruments give you incredibly realistic core instruments that are basic necessities for any studio: drums, bass, guitar, piano, and percussion. But that's just the beginning. MachFive also includes thousands of loops and phrases. From break-beats to mixed choirs, there's an entire universe to explore. MachFive Biosphere™ further broadens your sonic vistas with fresh, rich synth textures that are out of this world. And for the truly adventurous, the Xtreme FX bonus library from UltimateSoundBank.com gives you 5,000 creative sound effects, foley effects, and ambient textures suitable for both music production and sound design.

The Xtreme FX bonus library is the two DVD’s worth of effects and sounds downloaded directly from UVI. The MachFive sounds are on the other five DVDs.

[stubbsonic]

This one kinda confuses me. I hope it doesn't mean it writes new CC data even if you don't create any new CC data? i.e. you played in notes and mod wheel data, then went back to record new notes on top, but didn't touch the mod wheel. Hopefully it doesn't erase old CC data. Probably doesn't but..

I was wondering that, too.

[FMiguelez]

One cool new CC editing feature is: there's an option for when you nudge or quantize MIDI note data, the accompanying CC data moves with it! I like that one a lot... not sure how you adjust the parameters of _what_ gets moved - will have to see, but it's a great idea...

At this point I would be happy just to see that MOTU FINALLY fixed the CC and audio automation mess we've always had when cutting, pasting and snipping tracks with automation (the god-damned unwanted and idiotic ramps).

But without that fix, this upgrade would be mostly meaningless to me, as that behaviour is kindergarten-level that has no place in a professional DAW.

I wouldn't be surprised if GarageBand does all that much better than current DP!

Could any Garage Band user confirm this, please?

[joelmusic]

One cool new CC editing feature is: there's an option for when you nudge or quantize MIDI note data, the accompanying CC data moves with it! I like that one a lot... not sure how you adjust the parameters of _what_ gets moved - will have to see, but it's a great idea...

At this point I would happy just to see that MOTU FINALLY fixed the CC and audio automation mess we've always had when cutting, pasting and snipping tracks with automation (the god-damned unwanted and idiotic ramps).

But without that fix, this upgrade would be mostly meaningless to me, as that behaviour is kindergarten-level that has no place in a professional DAW.
I wouldn't be surprised if GarageBand does all that much better than current DP!

When I'm editing MIDI I view the CC data in 'bars' mode, not line and I think it's pretty intuitive. I can velocity and time scale, etc. What do you think would be better?

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Kindergarten? Really? No hyperbole there...

[FMiguelez]

Kindergarten? Really? No hyperbole there...

How is that hyperbole, exactly?
That particular DP aspect, the damned ramps, are kindergarten-level, Mike.

It's been like that for more than a decade, and no amount of complaining or writing to MOTU has sparked their interest to fix it.
AFAIK, no other DAW has those embarrassing issues.


Luckily for you, you just obviously haven't had the need in your projects to deal with that issue. Try it and see for yourself what a crippling mess and waste of time it is.

All I'm asking is to have the freedom to move automated tracks around without having to fix unwanted ramps for every automation parameter for every track in the mix all over the place!

It should behave just like Bite/Gain automation...

That bug/issue is the difference between spending 5 enjoyable minutes doing time-line edits and taking hours to accomplish the same thing.

Is that too much to ask from a professional DAW in 2019?
To simply be able to move automated tracks freely without concern for what's "underneath" them, like every other DAW?

[FMiguelez]

When I'm editing MIDI I view the CC data in 'bars' mode, not line and I think it's pretty intuitive. I can velocity and time scale, etc. What do you think would be better?

The problem is not that it's not intuitive.

Here I cite, from a past thread, the algorithm that MOTU could implement, probably during one afternoon, to fix the problem>


--- For every automated parameter that exists for the selected tracks for the selected region, take note of their initial/ending values, so that when the region is cut, snipped or pasted ANYWHERE, the resulting cut, snipped or pasted parameters ALWAYS match the source WHILE taking into account whatever automation came before and after in the target track(s).

Watch for this>>>
---- The source and target tracks may be the same or different tracks, with or without automation...
---- Source and target MIDI and audio tracks may also contain the same, similar or completely different automation parameters before/after the snip or paste.
Either way, source values must always match for all parameters at the head and tail, and this is how to avoid such extraneous and unwanted ramps.

That's basically it in spoken language!

=======

Also, there are many related problems that cause all kinds of trouble and time-wasting fixing them (when they're fixable, because there are things that WILL RUIN your project without option to undo).

I explain it all, with a working example that anyone can try for himself, in this thread, if you want to read in detail about all the issues I mean:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=64563

[FMiguelez]

@ Joelmusic

Ok. It's a very long thread, so I cite the working real-life example I mentioned, if you want to try and experience it for yourself:


------ >> Produce a complex 3-minute large orchestral piece using VIs (something like VSL).
--------->> Create the required edits for the promo versions according to the instructions below.

This is to simulate a typical real-life scenario in my or in TDH's professional lives. I'm sure he could provide a million different examples.
So let's pretend and please indulge me... You must REALLY at least try some of this for yourself for this challenge. Otherwise we'll never be on the same page...


----------- Details, so you try this yourself>
To approximate a real orchestra and compete with the temp score, you'll obviously have to use LOTS of CC automation, typically around 5-10 CCs per instrument for each track of the whole orchestra. And this is just the MIDI programming part... You'll also most likely need to do audio automation to your audio return tracks, where you'll automate volume and some plug-ins at the track, at the send, and at the stem level. Yadda, yada... You know, the usual stuff to produce something complex and decent...

Suddenly, right after you completed a preliminary mix, Mr. Hot-shot producer from the agency drops by your studio!
Before you finish the mix, he wants to try some edits for the promo versions...
--- > You must create a 5 minute version and a 1.5 minute version out of your original 3-minute piece.
Right there, on the spot.
It wouldn't be unreasonable to expect this to be a quick and enjoyable 20-30 minute editing job, yes? Piece of cake to do with independent tracks.

You must do these edits FROM THE MIDI and/or from the automated audio tracks (remember, you can't freeze tracks to do the edits because he also wants to change the mix later for the VOs *** see below in red)


-----> Report back and tell us how long it took you to do the edits for both versions, and how you explained to the producer why, after every single cut or paste or snip that you needed to do to get the alternate versions, you had to waste so much time checking track by track to make sure the automation 1) didn't get messed up, and/or 2) to correct the unwanted ramps for every automated parameter you will surely find in the MIDI and audio tracks... Aaaaaalll of them....)

Damn! No wonder that your mix sounded all wrong now that you pasted some tracks to make the first part of the extended version...

Oh, look! The tempo map got messed up as well after a snip! No wonder the click doesn't match this section any longer.
And you hardly just got started with the editing...
Tick-Tack Tick Tack.... He needs to send the edited versions NOW. He's breathing down your neck...
Oh, and the guitars from the middle of the short version now are too soft after those couple of snips you did 15 minutes ago... What happened there?... Oh, right. Look at those damned ramps!

Oh, and remember those alternate takes you had done 3 hours ago? Surprise! Now, after your timeline edits, they are ALL out of sync with the time line of your protect.

Whoops, and what about that quick test you did 50 minutes ago, where you made a couple of tweaks to the tempo map? Damn! ALL the pitch correction you had done to the vocal tracks yesterday is now irreversibly gone with a spectacular Frankensteinian mess. You can't even undo it!


Does that sound like a fun and productive session with clients????

It was the Session From Hell, with Ramsey and everything. That's the way any similar scenario would go, unfortunately.


Who ever denies there is a HUGE problem with automation editing, necessarily does not use much automation or doesn't do much editing, or both. Otherwise, there's no way you wouldn'd notice it, let alone deny this glaring problem.
(... or perhaps you ignored my request and didn't try any of my fictitious example above and you're wilfully ignoring this just to argue for the sake of arguing and pretending DP is beyond improvement.)

[ccrane]

All I'm asking is to have the freedom to move automated tracks around without having to fix unwanted ramps for every automation parameter for every track in the mix all over the place!

It should behave just like Bite/Gain automation...

That bug/issue is the difference between spending 5 enjoyable minutes doing time-line edits and taking hours to accomplish the same thing.

Is that too much to ask from a professional DAW in 2019?
To simply be able to move automated tracks freely without concern for what's "underneath" them, like every other DAW?

+1 on this. So all other major DAWs allow for keeping automation fully intact after copy/pasting?

[dix]

All I'm asking is to have the freedom to move automated tracks around without having to fix unwanted ramps for every automation parameter for every track in the mix all over the place!

It should behave just like Bite/Gain automation...

That bug/issue is the difference between spending 5 enjoyable minutes doing time-line edits and taking hours to accomplish the same thing.

Is that too much to ask from a professional DAW in 2019?
To simply be able to move automated tracks freely without concern for what's "underneath" them, like every other DAW?

+1 on this. So all other major DAWs allow for keeping automation fully intact after copy/pasting?

Those of us who don't work much in other DAWs are blissfully ignorant of the problem with CC automation editing I guess. It's awkward as-is, and could use improvement no doubt, but we're used to it.

Are we certain there hasn't been any improvement in this area in DP10? Several significant features, not mentioned on MOTU's site, have come to light. Maybe they improved things.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I hear you pain, FM. I truly do. It simply has never, ever, been an issue. Clearly, we work very differently.

[Michael Canavan]

utomation mess we've always had when cutting, pasting and snipping tracks with automation (the god-damned unwanted and idiotic ramps).

It's very likely IMO this has been fixed in 10, because they have brought at least four new things to MIDI, note names, note velocity, and quantized CC data with notes, as well as absolute snap to grid.

Mostly though companies don't publish until release bug fixes, so we will have to wait and see.

[FMiguelez]

Is that too much to ask from a professional DAW in 2019?
To simply be able to move automated tracks freely without concern for what's "underneath" them, like every other DAW?

+1 on this. So all other major DAWs allow for keeping automation fully intact after copy/pasting?

I am almost positive ALL DAWs, except DP, handle automation properly.

I know for sure that FL Studio, Live, and the "un-nameable" one do. Garage Band most likely does too (any GB user please confirm - I'd be shocked if it doesn't, as I understand it's quite object-oriented, like Logic)

Are we certain there hasn't been any improvement in this area in DP10? Several significant features, not mentioned on MOTU's site, have come to light. Maybe they improved things.

No, not certain at all... I'm just howling at the moon so it becomes true