MOTUnation.com

BobK wrote:

mhschmieder wrote:The new GUI is amazing, and dramatically speeds up the opening of projects as well as giving an immediate and clear overview of workflow and project flow right off the bat. I can't believe people are yearning for the old way, which was clunky and obtuse with the unnecessary and slow "3D GUI" look and feel.

On what basis are making this claim that speed increases are due to the simplfied GUI? If a simpler GUI really helped, don't you think MOTU would have done that long ago, when computers were much less powerful? This just doesn't make sense to me, but I'm not a programmer. A lot of the interface elements are just little graphics files, and I can't imagine that a 3d look takes significantly more processing power to display.

I thought that efficiency increases in DP 6 were largely due to it being rewritten from the ground up in Cocoa, the native OS X programming interface, where DP 5 was based on Carbon, which was for apps that ran in both OS X and OS 9.

The rewrite would make DP more efficient, but simplifying the GUI would as well. The two don't rule each other out.

BobK wrote:On what basis are making this claim that speed increases are due to the simplfied GUI? If a simpler GUI really helped, don't you think MOTU would have done that long ago, when computers were much less powerful? This just doesn't make sense to me, but I'm not a programmer. A lot of the interface elements are just little graphics files, and I can't imagine that a 3d look takes significantly more processing power to display.

Hmmmmmm. I was just writing a response to this which actually supported your doubtfulness on this matter. But then I thought I'd better make sure that there really was no basis. So I took a PNG photograph (which is the same format used by MOTU for images) and removed all colour from the photo so that it was WHITE only. I resaved the photo and expected not much difference in file size. But the difference was actually huge.

Colour photo = 972 KB (994,842 bytes)
White photo = 12 KB (11,654 bytes)

That's a file size that is 85 times smaller! So removing colour from the image files does potentially increase efficiency (although keep in mind that the contrast in my experiment is much greater than the adjustment in MOTU files from 3D to anemic. My starting image was of a sunset and probably had millions of colours.

But yeah... MOTU should probably have given us whiter and plainer graphics back then, and should be giving us the more pleasant 3D graphics now, since I think that this stuff is pretty negligible on our modern computers.

Well, I do this for a living, and I can guarantee you that 3D textured rendering is way more expensive all around than a flat GUI.

mhschmieder wrote:Well, I do this for a living, and I can guarantee you that 3D textured rendering is way more expensive all around than a flat GUI.

I don't doubt this, but this "reversion" back to 2D has been largely influenced by Adobe's more recent post modern approach to web design concepts as we've seen all over the place. Logic and Live come to mind, in the way of DAWs.

I can only wonder about how they're pocketing that savings with their software going for a premium. Is 3D really *that* out of style?

I thought the opposite; that 3D GUI's were the buzzword of the day.

I am so glad that Adobe moved away from that approach. I find the latest updates (Lightroom 2 and Photoshop CS4) so much easier to follow.

3D was always a bad idea for GUI's. The Motif look-and-feel (which I support in my app as an option) is the best example of this whole approach gone awry. It is impossible to tell which way a button is in and which way it is out; you simply have to remember.

Of course, we are all different, and different people also have different visual challenges. My work flow is sped up considerably when an app is more responsive due to less processing time for GUI refresh, and when there is no extraneous noise on the screen acting merely as window dressing.

Frodo wrote:... this "reversion" back to 2D has been largely influenced by Adobe's more recent post modern approach to web design concepts as we've seen all over the place. Logic and Live come to mind...

There's a wide open field for innovators. Too bad MOTU has decided to follow the pack. It's all about marketing and trying to outdo the competitor instead of yourself. It's one of the reasons I love Apple machines. They really do think different!

mhschmieder wrote:I thought the opposite; that 3D GUI's were the buzzword of the day.

Not sure-- maybe it's moving away from the 2D thing-- but here's an example:

http://reviews.sonikmatter.com/live_review/session.jpg

.. which follows a lot of 2D web designs done in Shockwave/Flash.

To echo Zed's comment about why it should be a burden on today's machines-- considering that DP5 itself uses considerably less than 300 MB on machines that can now hold 16GB or more.

But don't get me wrong-- at the core, I really don't care nearly as much about "the look"-- 2D, 3D, too bright or too dark. When all other functionality no longer becomes of any concern whatsoever, I'll worry about the cosmetics.

If DP 6.02 is working, then it could have a face like a bulldog chewing on a wasp. Functionality, stability, and reliability will ever remain paramount for me.

If that means simplifying the graphics, I'm all for it!!

It's like automobile design. Pretty soon we'll be back to retro squares. The "Frames" look. Then they'll bust out of it all over again with angles and 3D design. It will reach a culmination of controls that are all spheres that you can manipulate in various ways, then it'll be notebook paper with ruled lines on it. Hmm... no, Roger Nichols already did that, and we still haven't had time to get over that one.

Keep changing the interface styles, and it keeps people buying, since their screenshots immediately broadcast "I bought my ThermoDaduVoltometer 5 years ago, and have been too cheap to pay the upgrade price, which is only $399."

I've liked every style yet that MOTU put out. I didn't like 6.0 at first, but now I wouldn't go back. Especially after 6.02!

Shooshie

Shooshie wrote:It's like automobile design. Pretty soon we'll be back to retro squares. The "Frames" look. Then they'll bust out of it all over again with angles and 3D design. It will reach a culmination of controls that are all spheres that you can manipulate in various ways, then it'll be notebook paper with ruled lines on it. Hmm... no, Roger Nichols already did that, and we still haven't had time to get over that one.

Keep changing the interface styles, and it keeps people buying, since their screenshots immediately broadcast "I bought my ThermoDaduVoltometer 5 years ago, and have been too cheap to pay the upgrade price, which is only $399."

I've liked every style yet that MOTU put out. I didn't like 6.0 at first, but now I wouldn't go back. Especially after 6.02!

Shooshie

As usual spot on the money..

I used DP5 the other day on a location recording (wife has it on her lappy which I use) and it seemed archaic. I never liked 5 anyway (I upgraded from 4.61 to 6) and the look was pretty cumbersome and layout I thought was no where as good either.

I've been a total fan of 6 from the instant I installed it for it looks better to me and since this update it's rocking.

Tis getting oh so close

BobK wrote:I thought that efficiency increases in DP 6 were largely due to it being rewritten from the ground up in Cocoa, the native OS X programming interface, where DP 5 was based on Carbon, which was for apps that ran in both OS X and OS 9.

I don't think anyone ever said that DP was rewritten in Cocoa (or at least, no one that was in an informed position to say so). Sure, they've adopted some standard OS widgets, e.g. the stop light close/minimize/maximize buttons, but that doesn't mean that the entire app was rewritten from the ground up. Companies usually like to tout that sort of thing so it seems rather doubtful that they'd sweep it under the rug and not mention it even once on the website or in a press release.

Migrated an active project from 5.13 to 6.02 with no problems last night. Shuttled it from Intel MBP to PPC G5 and back over the course of the day. No big problems so far.

I believe the MW Leveler volume swell thing is apparent on the G5, and I hadn't noticed it on the MBP. Long settling time to original operating level if you bypass and then re-engage. Note NOT the standby button, but the full bypass.

5.13 and 6.02 both become unresponsive while closing on both systems about 95% of the time, and require force quit.

Weird one; Stillwell plugs worked with 6.01 but the Alphatrack would not control them. 6.02, broken GUI knobs as described, but Alphatrack does work.

EMRR wrote:5.13 and 6.02 both become unresponsive while closing on both systems about 95% of the time, and require force quit.

I'm glad I'm not the only one having this problem, at least with 6.01-6.02. The longer I keep a project open, and the bigger a project is, the more likely that, upon quitting out of DP, I'll either have to wait an inordinately long time (even if I close the project before quitting) for DP to quit, or have to force quit to get out of it. Another thing, and this is likely the same for everyone using 6, is that you'll notice about a GB or so (maybe even more, depending on the size of your project) missing from your hard drive after quitting DP if you were using pre-render, and have to restart your machine in order to get it back.

Armageddon wrote:...you'll notice about a GB or so (maybe even more, depending on the size of your project) missing from your hard drive after quitting DP if you were using pre-render, and have to restart your machine in order to get it back.

I haven't seen this with DP 6 yet, but I have recently been having this problem with other applications on my system (mostly video related). Surely there must be a way to get those GBs back without having to restart the machine. I have done quite a bit of searching inside system folders to find a culprit cache or something, but have been unable to locate the source of problem. I don't believe I ever experienced this before my upgrade to OS 10.4.11... but I am not 100% I should be holding the OS responsible.

Does anyone know what is going on with this, and whether there are any non-restart solutions?

carrythebanner wrote:

BobK wrote:I thought that efficiency increases in DP 6 were largely due to it being rewritten from the ground up in Cocoa, the native OS X programming interface, where DP 5 was based on Carbon, which was for apps that ran in both OS X and OS 9.

I don't think anyone ever said that DP was rewritten in Cocoa (or at leat, no one that was in an informed position to say so). Sure, they're adopted some standard OS widgets, e.g. the stop light close/minimize/maximize buttons, but that doesn't mean that the entire app was rewritten from the ground up. Companies usually like to tout that sort of thing so it seems rather doubtful that they'd sweep it under the rug and not mention it even once on the website or in a press release.

Has anyone in an informed position to say so ever actually said that they have NOT rewritten substantial parts of DP in Cocoa? It's not the sort of thing that MOTU has ever mentioned, in the history of their apps, with the exception of compatibility necessities, such as the upgrade which made DP compatible natively with PPC apps. There have been quite a few indicators that they have rewritten the base code of DP. Shall I list some?

1) several years ago the leading expert on Cocoa had listed in his calendar online a block of time which during which he would be unavailable, due to having been contracted by MOTU in Cambridge, Mass. I think his name is Aaron Hillegass. They don't hire Hillegass for little programming fixes. They hire him to teach their programmers how to do it. He was the principle exponent of NeXTStep, which became Cocoa in OSX, and has been teaching programmers since it started. He also wrote the book on programming in Cocoa. Hillegass wasn't visiting MOTU to chat, and MOTU doesn't hire someone like Hillegass unless they have to. They had to.
2) with each release since about that time, there have been little things in DP that were broken; things that would never be broken unless the code had been rewritten.
3) DP has exhibited they symptoms of rewritten code: the new programmers did not know to connect lots of the little "behind-the-scenes" things together, so something activated over in one window would then cause a change in other places. I can't remember specific things, but it's happened many times, and I'm sure others could back me up. Any old-timer who knows DP's feel would be aware of these things.
4) Upgrades have drastically changed DP's speed, but not uniformly. One thing would be slower and another would be faster.
5) In version 6.01, DP took a radical jump in speed, such that one could actually use a buffer of 256 and feel little latency. Buffers of 64 became practical
6) The interface changed to standard Mac windows and controls -- very Cocoa-like.
7) Steve Jobs has said unequivocally that 64 bit Snow Leopard will cut off compatibility with ALL APPS that are not written in Cocoa. The former efforts to make Carbon 64 bit compatible were ended at that time.

People keep challenging me when I say that DP has been significantly rewritten in a Cocoa-compatible environment, but I've seen zero evidence to back their claims, and lots of evidence to back mine. MOTU is not going to tell anybody what their programmers are doing. Never have, never will. DP is a gigantic program with thousands of components and myriad connections to virtual CPU ports. If they hope to be compatible with Snow Leopard, they would have had to begin this process at least 3 years ago. The shoe fits...


Shooshie

Shooshie wrote: Shall I list some?

Truly awesome post. Thanks