HOW CAN I AVOID PRO TOOLS?

[zaster]

PT HD|1: $88,888.00 before rebate!!

What's it after rebate?

[pcm]

That said, these studio are pretty much 100% PT. And not LE either.

this is not true, it just isn't true. this is what drives me crazy, the misconception that 99.9% (or 100%) of pro studios run pthd. there are a good number of pro studios that don't run PTHD as their primary system. i could compile a list for you if you'd like, but it'd be kind of silly. The more people go around yakking about how PTHD is used in EVERY pro facility, the HARDER it is for folks who go against the grain, in PRO facilities to compete.

And i don't know where you come from, but here in the good ol us of a, competition is a good thing.

I am in NYC, and here it is surely as I say. Has been for many years now. Don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger!

[Frodo]

PT HD|1: $88,888.00 before rebate!!

What's it after rebate?

$250k

[pcm]

What I was saying about Pro Tools LE is just my opinion and I see enough people here throwing theirs around so I'll say it. Yes, I'm sure good stuff is done on LE, absolutely! What I'm talking about is the hypocrisy of those who slam DP, and act high-and-mighty because they have Pro Tools and then I find they're running PT LE on an M-Box. (Yeah, and the 32 track limit... that's nice.)

My point is if someone is going to argue the *technological* superiority of Pro Tools over DP, to be credible, their argument should really be about the advantages of a TDM-based system over native. And yes, DP can run on TDM systems, but it's my understanding that DP's TDM support isn't as robust as Pro Tools (which seems only natural.)

DP running under DAE can be a marvel to behold. But there always seem to be a few unresolved issues. Anyone who owns TDM hardware, also, by nature, owns PT software. If motu ironed-out DP-DAE, they could stand to make serious inroads in the pro-studio crowd. But it is not as reliable as it needs to be. If motu wanted to increase their market share among this crowd, they would make this a priority.

Frankly, I think there's still bad blood between MOTU and Digidesign. You have to sort of give MOTU credit as their original 2408 sort of broke Digidesign's stranglehold monopoly and the days of charging thousands for systems limited to 8 or 16 tracks, etc. As I have said repeatedly, I CANNOT PROVE ANY OF THIS NOR DO I HAVE ANY INFORMATION ABOUT IT, but my gut tells me that I doubt Digi is all that cooperative in helping MOTU get DP to run completely slick on TDM.

You might well be right, but consider the following. While I'm sure Digi is in no hurry to help motu per se, helping them to get DP running better under DAE could only help Digi themselves. After all, that was the original business model between them, right? In the day, DP, Studio Vision, and Logic helped sell more than a few TDM systems. My gut feeling is that it is not a priority for motu.

[pcm]

Everyone should have LE, with or without the Production Toolkit, just so you can easily receive and send sessions with audio in place. It's just a fact of the business these days if you interact with other studios/producers.

I agree. Plus, if you have it in house, then you are totally in control of how you move tracks in and out, and that is a big plus. No panic phones calls the next day. And that translates into less jittery clients. And that translates into more income.

[Shooshie]

By the way, I also do a lot of sequencing in DP and PT and PT 7 is no slouch in the MIDI world. In fact there are some things it does much better than DP (or that DP doesn't do at all!). Two examples:

1) PT will do MIDI velocity crescendos/decrescendos on a range of selected notes. You can specify the shape of the curve, start/end velocity, scale, etc. I've wanted this in DP forever because it's EXTREMELY tedious to do manually.

2) You can treat MIDI exactly like audio and manipulate it by region. And by regions that YOU define, not by what the Tracks Overview defines. This is a huge editing speedup because you're not forced to constantly drag and shift-select ranges of notes to get everything you want. And these regions end up in the bin where they're just as handy to use as soundbites.

This is the problem: when people get together to compare their tools, their lack of knowledge gets in the way of really making it worthwhile. Jason, there are several ways of doing #1 in DP, and PT copied one of them. One is dialog based, the other is toolbar based, and each have several variants with lots of options. They are both fast, and you can specify the exact shape of your curve if you like, or you can use starting/ending values or percentages and weight the curve toward either end in parabolic fashion, positive or negative, or you can specify general shapes and let MOTU do the heavy lifting much faster than you can draw in a curve. The toolbar-based curves are superb, as you can see them and reshape them before you commit. The dialog based curves are extremely fast for repetitive applications. Then there is the proportional curve -- taking the existing curve and exaggerating it or minimizing it with a simple control-shift-click/drag. That's yet another way to do it! Learn your MIDI! (all in the tips sheet, by the way)

#2 is strictly a matter of opinion, not a hard fact. I prefer the way DP does regions, perhaps because being a 20+ year veteran of it, I've really, really learned how to use it fast and efficiently. The regions that most other software create for you leave me feeling roped into a closet. Maybe PT's is not that bad; I really don't know. Garageband and Logic are. But that's just not something I find myself thinking about in Digital Performer.

If you prefer the MIDI in PT over that in DP, you're simply not a MIDI person. That's cool, but be careful about ripping into what you don't know about. In DP forums you're going to find a lot of people who know MIDI like the path to the refrigerator.

I learned audio in the tape days, so I've learned digital audio pretty much on my own, with the able help of people from this forum, and from masters like Bob Katz and others. Still, I recognize that audio is my weak side in DP, though I'm thoroughly confident in my ability to produce top-notch audio within the app which cannot be distinguished from that of Pro Tools. It's the engineering that counts, and it's all still based on the same basic info that was valid 40 years ago. You just have to learn all the little exceptions that will cause digital to do the opposite of what you expect it to do. That is a matter of study and practice. There's a lot of mythology to overcome, too. One of those myths, of course, is that PT makes better audio than DP. People are welcome to believe what they wish, but it doesn't wash with me.

I'm finding this thread, which started out interesting, to be more and more pointless as I catch up on it (I'm out of town on dialup), and more people are chiming in with the PT is God routine. Maybe DP ought to change its name to Digital Pro, since it seems to be this word "pro" that is hanging everyone up.

Personally, if I walk into a studio with completely outfitted Studio A, Studio B, and so on, with the pretty manager up front, and the plants, the break room, the refrigerator (twice for that word in one post!), the lounge, showers, etc., then yes I expect to find PTHD at work on fabulous boards. I also expect to find a copy of DP in the house somewhere for those projects that need to be imported or exported. (I'm often disappointed to find that's not the case, but just as often find that it IS the case) But the scope of this thread was never to set up such straw men. Nobody here has suggested investing $1 million in an outfit that does not have an installation of Pro Tools. That would be sick. I mean... ridiculous.

We're talking about people's private project studios where they get to call the shots, work the way they want, take customers based on their reputation, and refuse customers who prefer image over reputation. If your feeling about that is "Pro Tools Go Home!" Then there's nothing keeping you from it. Use DP, use it all the way, and blow people away with your abilities. I'm telling you it can be done if that's what you want.

You might soon find yourself wanting to expand into Pro Tools. I don't think it's that hard to learn relative to DP, and if you do it, you may find yourself with more flexibility. But as long as you do not want to do that, or cannot afford to, or simply have issues and want it kept out of your studio, then nothing is stopping you from being a DP master engineer. This is fact, people, as many people have proved time and again.

Most of the jobs I've either been involved with or known others who were involved with have come down from people who say "can you get me 30 seconds on this spot, delivered in XYZ format by Tuesday?" Either you can or you can't. I can't imagine why you can't, except that Tuesday is tomorrow, and you're going to be pretty busy. I don't hear them saying "it's gotta be created in Pro Tools!"

There is too much positive literature out there showing how these platforms support each other to believe the tales of woe from nay-sayers in this forum. Too many people have written articles about how they took a pro tools session and mixed stems in DP and gave it back in TDM format, or finished the project in DP, or many, many other variations on that theme. Sorry, I just don't buy this Pro Tools is the only Pro Studio Option theme, and I'm frankly sick of hearing about it.

Shooshie

[James Steele]

Okay. Here's the deal of the century:

Limited time offer from Sweetwater!

PT HD|1: $88,888.00 before rebate!!

http://www.sweetwater.com/c554--Pro_Too ... re_Systems

Count me in, baby. That's got to be one heckuva rebate!!

Hehehe... don't forget... you're gonna need an interface for that baby, too!

[Frodo]

Hey-- what's another measley $999 Billion?

[iMAS]

Okay. Here's the deal of the century:

Limited time offer from Sweetwater!

PT HD|1: $88,888.00 before rebate!!

Oh, I'm sure it comes with a brand new BMW...no ?

[Frodo]

Okay. Here's the deal of the century:

Limited time offer from Sweetwater!

PT HD|1: $88,888.00 before rebate!!

Oh, I'm sure it comes with a brand new BMW...no ?

Only if you're a "pro"!

[iMAS]

Okay. Here's the deal of the century:

Limited time offer from Sweetwater!

PT HD|1: $88,888.00 before rebate!!

Oh, I'm sure it comes with a brand new BMW...no ?

Only if you're a "pro"!

Well then, if that's the case, I'll be expectin' a Porshe.

[Frodo]

Well then, if that's the case, I'll be expectin' a Porshe.

Goodnes. You ARE a pro!

[Akai96]

By the way, I also do a lot of sequencing in DP and PT and PT 7 is no slouch in the MIDI world. In fact there are some things it does much better than DP (or that DP doesn't do at all!). Two examples:

1) PT will do MIDI velocity crescendos/decrescendos on a range of selected notes. You can specify the shape of the curve, start/end velocity, scale, etc. I've wanted this in DP forever because it's EXTREMELY tedious to do manually.

2) You can treat MIDI exactly like audio and manipulate it by region. And by regions that YOU define, not by what the Tracks Overview defines. This is a huge editing speedup because you're not forced to constantly drag and shift-select ranges of notes to get everything you want. And these regions end up in the bin where they're just as handy to use as soundbites.

This is the problem: when people get together to compare their tools, their lack of knowledge gets in the way of really making it worthwhile. Jason, there are several ways of doing #1 in DP, and PT copied one of them. One is dialog based, the other is toolbar based, and each have several variants with lots of options. They are both fast, and you can specify the exact shape of your curve if you like, or you can use starting/ending values or percentages and weight the curve toward either end in parabolic fashion, positive or negative, or you can specify general shapes and let MOTU do the heavy lifting much faster than you can draw in a curve. The toolbar-based curves are superb, as you can see them and reshape them before you commit. The dialog based curves are extremely fast for repetitive applications. Then there is the proportional curve -- taking the existing curve and exaggerating it or minimizing it with a simple control-shift-click/drag. That's yet another way to do it! Learn your MIDI! (all in the tips sheet, by the way)

#2 is strictly a matter of opinion, not a hard fact. I prefer the way DP does regions, perhaps because being a 20+ year veteran of it, I've really, really learned how to use it fast and efficiently. The regions that most other software create for you leave me feeling roped into a closet. Maybe PT's is not that bad; I really don't know. Garageband and Logic are. But that's just not something I find myself thinking about in Digital Performer.

If you prefer the MIDI in PT over that in DP, you're simply not a MIDI person. That's cool, but be careful about ripping into what you don't know about. In DP forums you're going to find a lot of people who know MIDI like the path to the refrigerator.

I learned audio in the tape days, so I've learned digital audio pretty much on my own, with the able help of people from this forum, and from masters like Bob Katz and others. Still, I recognize that audio is my weak side in DP, though I'm thoroughly confident in my ability to produce top-notch audio within the app which cannot be distinguished from that of Pro Tools. It's the engineering that counts, and it's all still based on the same basic info that was valid 40 years ago. You just have to learn all the little exceptions that will cause digital to do the opposite of what you expect it to do. That is a matter of study and practice. There's a lot of mythology to overcome, too. One of those myths, of course, is that PT makes better audio than DP. People are welcome to believe what they wish, but it doesn't wash with me.

I'm finding this thread, which started out interesting, to be more and more pointless as I catch up on it (I'm out of town on dialup), and more people are chiming in with the PT is God routine. Maybe DP ought to change its name to Digital Pro, since it seems to be this word "pro" that is hanging everyone up.

Personally, if I walk into a studio with completely outfitted Studio A, Studio B, and so on, with the pretty manager up front, and the plants, the break room, the refrigerator (twice for that word in one post!), the lounge, showers, etc., then yes I expect to find PTHD at work on fabulous boards. I also expect to find a copy of DP in the house somewhere for those projects that need to be imported or exported. (I'm often disappointed to find that's not the case, but just as often find that it IS the case) But the scope of this thread was never to set up such straw men. Nobody here has suggested investing $1 million in an outfit that does not have an installation of Pro Tools. That would be sick. I mean... ridiculous.

We're talking about people's private project studios where they get to call the shots, work the way they want, take customers based on their reputation, and refuse customers who prefer image over reputation. If your feeling about that is "Pro Tools Go Home!" Then there's nothing keeping you from it. Use DP, use it all the way, and blow people away with your abilities. I'm telling you it can be done if that's what you want.

You might soon find yourself wanting to expand into Pro Tools. I don't think it's that hard to learn relative to DP, and if you do it, you may find yourself with more flexibility. But as long as you do not want to do that, or cannot afford to, or simply have issues and want it kept out of your studio, then nothing is stopping you from being a DP master engineer. This is fact, people, as many people have proved time and again.

Most of the jobs I've either been involved with or known others who were involved with have come down from people who say "can you get me 30 seconds on this spot, delivered in XYZ format by Tuesday?" Either you can or you can't. I can't imagine why you can't, except that Tuesday is tomorrow, and you're going to be pretty busy. I don't hear them saying "it's gotta be created in Pro Tools!"

There is too much positive literature out there showing how these platforms support each other to believe the tales of woe from nay-sayers in this forum. Too many people have written articles about how they took a pro tools session and mixed stems in DP and gave it back in TDM format, or finished the project in DP, or many, many other variations on that theme. Sorry, I just don't buy this Pro Tools is the only Pro Studio Option theme, and I'm frankly sick of hearing about it.

Shooshie

I see where your coming from,but It's only like going to the store to buy toothpaste,Colgate,Crest, ETC,Since most are naive they will only pick the most popular.Like I said,some of the very best stuff i have heard was done in DP.Yes you can do it all in DP and get a better final production than someone in Prootools!I have done this myself,and I am in the professional field both as far as making money and commercial.
Owning protools is a great Idea for being as compatble in the audio world as possible,that's all I'm saying...Oh and most of the top name studio's 100% do run protools,but that does not mean that they can do better than someone with DP,Logic,Cubase,or even someone with LE at thier on pad.Believe me I have had much much experience in this.

[Akai96]

Also one of the best engineers(in my opinion)does all his mixes in Logic Pro!
In the box just using his plug-ins and a rosseta 800,very versatile and one of the most called engineers,he mixes top name records too,so if your coming from that point of view I definently understand.

[FMiguelez]

.

Wow. i just want to point out that even after 13 PAGES of posts, we've managed to keep this touchy discussion totally nice and civilized.
That says a lot about the caliber of UN members here. Was this any other forum, we would've murdered each other already.
And this is one of those very "sensitive" topics!!

Good, heated discussion, but totally classy and respectful.


Good for us


Hmm. By the way, this reminds me we haven't had trolls for a while. Bronx guy?? Sometimes they can be pretty entertaing, though