MOTUnation.com

dewdman42 wrote:well check out the manual for logic9. It used to have quite a bit of chord capability, including a complete chord track that could analyze the music and put up all the chord symbols for you, etc.. Not sure why they removed it for X

Yes, it's gone in X. Apparently, it wasn't that reliable. But it was fine for general guitar chords.

dewdman42 wrote:yea I'm familar with what DP has...its entirely inadequate. That notation window hasn't been updated in at least a decade or two, or three, and pretty much sucks. The other quickscribe is ok, but also hugely inferior. Main problem is that it only provides a page view, but its not the only problem.

Can you be specific as to what you would add to the Notation Window? It does notation. You can use it for entry, editing, playback, and just reading. I know at least one person here who uses it more than any other window. I think it's usually accurate to say about any window that it can be "improved," but "entirely inadequate" seems like overkill. Chord symbols would be nice, for sure, though I'm not sure how necessary it is to have a DAW identify them for you. I usually want to spell them my own way, and everyone has their own way of doing chords, though we all can generally read them.

Anyway, what would you add? Maybe flipping accidentals? Pop into the CW? I think it's a pretty useful window.

Shooshie

Off the topic of notation, I'm looking forward to getting Logic X, I can't really open Logic 8 anymore without this huge hassle, insert account XSKey, type in serial number for upgrade to Logic 8 etc. There are a couple old songs I wouldn't mind finishing up in Logic, and it's hilarious but I'm using the CoinStar change counting machines found at Safeways etc. No charge if you redeem for iTunes cash, which works in the App Store.

Not getting rid of DP by any means, the way DP works with hardware synths is outstanding. The fact I set a Chunk to send tuning messages to my synths, then a couple bars later the SysEx with the patch for the song is not to be taken lightly!

To me anyway the only area where Logic still beats DP is in looping controls (much easier and more powerful in Logic), and object oriented MIDI. <---- On the last one, DP would IMO kill them all if it only did Object Oriented MIDI in the Track Overview. The TO already parse MIDI based on simple math, but if it let the end user decide this with cutting and glueing 'parses' like Logic and other DAWs do, it wouldn't interfere with the way we work in DP now, but add that feature to the most logical window in DP to add it to.

Michael Canavan wrote:The TO already parse MIDI based on simple math, but if it let the end user decide this with cutting and glueing 'parses' like Logic and other DAWs do, it wouldn't interfere with the way we work in DP now, but add that feature to the most logical window in DP to add it to.

I went for years without realizing how much you CAN get out of the way DP parses MIDI objects in the Tracks Overview. When I finally paid attention to the way it was worded and realized that I could have it split those regions into just about any length, when longer than XX, I started actually getting some good use from it. In addition, you can hold down the Command Key after you click, enabling selection of fine detail even within an object.

There's more there than most people know or use. I do not mean to say it competes with Logic on this feature; just that it does a lot more than most people realize.

Shooshie

If flexible parsing is all we get out of MIDI regions, not sure I'd bother. More useful is the use of region specific effects and routing. Track folders and MIDI effects cover part of this -- automation of MIDI effect parameters and an expanded set of MIDI effects would move it another step.

bayswater wrote:If flexible parsing is all we get out of MIDI regions, not sure I'd bother. More useful is the use of region specific effects and routing. Track folders and MIDI effects cover part of this -- automation of MIDI effect parameters and an expanded set of MIDI effects would move it another step.

One of the very few things I like about Logic (besides MIDI regions), is the ability to automatically record takes in a loop -- just like DP does with audio takes. If DP could do this, I'd never look at Logic again. Of course, (wishful thinking) then it would be nice if DP's comp tool worked with MIDI as well.

dewdman42 wrote:This isn't quite released yet, but see where they are going with it:

http://sonicscores.com/wordpress/overture/

Is this Overture 5 derived from Opcode's Overture?


Frank Ferrucci

Thanks for an interesting read, I've been also contemplating between paying for DP9, or half less for Logic Pro X.

Background: I've used DP long ago (DP5), but I ditched it in favor of Ableton, which seemed much more intuitive. While it was and probably still is, it was also too unreliable and lacking in features. I sold it to a friend after my previous project, after which I've been fiddling on hardware side of things and just recording with GarageBand without any post-editing. Now I need a real sequencer again.

After considering everything that's been written and trying out both DP9 and Logic X, I'm just going to cough up the dinero for DP9. I came to this conclusion because I feel MOTU is worth it; they seem to care for and support their customers and they keep their code stable. This is demonstrated well by the big plus that DP9 will run fine on both of my Macs, while Logic wouldn't.

Thanks!

Koston wrote:MOTU is worth it; they seem to care for and support their customers and they keep their code stable. This is demonstrated well by the big plus that DP9 will run fine on both of my Macs, while Logic wouldn't.

I have Performer files from the mid-1980s which still open in DP, their windows still sized and placed where I left them. I purposely keep those files unsaved when I open them as a little test to see if MOTU has continued to place value on retro-compatibility. Also, I've got a lot of good work in those. No need to do it again when I need some of those things. There can't be more than a handful of apps for the Mac which still can open their files from 1986, just as they were, and still just as usable as they were then. In fact, I simply don't know of any besides DP. Maybe Photoshop or Illustrator, though I think they were born about a year later, and I haven't tried opening a file from that era on them.

Microsoft's apps certainly won't open their old files. MS Word first broke its format in about 1998 or 1999. It's broken it at least one time since then, too. If you stored your novel in MS Word in 1988, good luck ever getting it back.

But MOTU has been dependable in that regard. I hold the company's programming and reliability in tremendous esteem, despite the occasional glitch or bug — which always get fixed at some point if they are essential features. (Custom Consoles and Tap Tempo notwithstanding)

Shooshie

Shooshie wrote: I have Performer files from the mid-1980s which still open in DP, their windows still sized and placed where I left them.

...

But MOTU has been dependable in that regard. I hold the company's programming and reliability in tremendous esteem, despite the occasional glitch or bug — which always get fixed at some point if they are essential features. (Custom Consoles and Tap Tempo notwithstanding)

That is very, very impressive indeed. I've been working as a software engineer for roughly 15 years now, and knowing what it's like makes it all the more impressive. Companies today struggle to support even products they've only just pushed out to the market, nevermind something conceived years ago.

Likewise, a lot of things can go sour quickly in software business. It's a veritable miracle that MOTU has managed to not only keep going, but keep going so strong.

To elaborate on my previous post about Ableton not being so good, that was one case where things obviously did go south. It wasn't hard to tell they've had some internal struggles and lost a handful of key developers, as the code quality deteriorated quickly, new feature development turned rather superficial and customer care was struggling to keep up to respond to emails. The time they've spent now just adding a couple nigh-trivial features and fixing stability issues, BitWig guys have pretty much written an entire sequencer from scratch (yes, BitWig guys are those who left Ableton).

Now, I don't mean to bash Ableton, they've still got a lot going for them and I hope they pull through. Their problems are a very common thing to happen in software industry, where unlike traditional jobs, one man can actually do the work of a hundred, and even a hundred may not be able to do the work of that particular one. This can be very difficult to fathom, if you aren't an experienced programmer. Which again returns to reasons why I respect MOTU, they have obviously understood this - they even describe themselves: "MOTU is an engineering-driven music technology company".

I'm more than happy to spend a little more money on something I respect and trust. I wonder if they're hiring..

Michael Canavan wrote:...To me anyway the only area where Logic still beats DP is in looping controls (much easier and more powerful in Logic), and object oriented MIDI. <---- On the last one, DP would IMO kill them all if it only did Object Oriented MIDI in the Track Overview. The TO already parse MIDI based on simple math, but if it let the end user decide this with cutting and glueing 'parses' like Logic and other DAWs do, it wouldn't interfere with the way we work in DP now, but add that feature to the most logical window in DP to add it to.

I agree 110% with this.

It took a few years of asking for the ability to mute MIDI notes to finally see it. Let's start making noise about this!

nk_e wrote:

Michael Canavan wrote:...To me anyway the only area where Logic still beats DP is in looping controls (much easier and more powerful in Logic), and object oriented MIDI. <---- On the last one, DP would IMO kill them all if it only did Object Oriented MIDI in the Track Overview. The TO already parse MIDI based on simple math, but if it let the end user decide this with cutting and glueing 'parses' like Logic and other DAWs do, it wouldn't interfere with the way we work in DP now, but add that feature to the most logical window in DP to add it to.

I agree 110% with this.

It took a few years of asking for the ability to mute MIDI notes to finally see it. Let's start making noise about this!

A side note: The one thing about this that would be askew is that it's generally much easier and more powerful to work with audio in the Sequence Editor, so if the SE doesn't get object oriented MIDI you're running into that pickle. Not IMO a real issue, but a consideration.

Koston wrote:
To elaborate on my previous post about Ableton not being so good, that was one case where things obviously did go south. It wasn't hard to tell they've had some internal struggles and lost a handful of key developers, as the code quality deteriorated quickly, new feature development turned rather superficial and customer care was struggling to keep up to respond to emails. The time they've spent now just adding a couple nigh-trivial features and fixing stability issues, BitWig guys have pretty much written an entire sequencer from scratch (yes, BitWig guys are those who left Ableton).

Now, I don't mean to bash Ableton, they've still got a lot going for them and I hope they pull through. Their problems are a very common thing to happen in software industry, where unlike traditional jobs, one man can actually do the work of a hundred, and even a hundred may not be able to do the work of that particular one. This can be very difficult to fathom, if you aren't an experienced programmer. Which again returns to reasons why I respect MOTU, they have obviously understood this - they even describe themselves: "MOTU is an engineering-driven music technology company".

I'm more than happy to spend a little more money on something I respect and trust. I wonder if they're hiring..

I currently and for years work with both DP and Live. DP is definitely one of the most consistently stable programs I use but every program goes through a buggy period. With DP it seems to have been v6, and of course DP9 isn't as Stable for me as dp8. I stopped using Logic around v7 because I found it buggy and thought DP integrated better into a set up with Live, but subsequent versions are stable.
Not saying DP doesn't excell in stability, just that you can always find bugs if you use the software enough. Ableton imo made a mistake when they partnered with Cycling 74 to integrate Max into Live. Cycling might be great programmers for dsp etc. but they never quite got integration with other software right, dumping buggy Pluggo in favor of adding bugs to Live directly... That said Live 9 has been stable.

Shooshie wrote:

Koston wrote:MOTU is worth it; they seem to care for and support their customers and they keep their code stable. This is demonstrated well by the big plus that DP9 will run fine on both of my Macs, while Logic wouldn't.

Microsoft's apps certainly won't open their old files. MS Word first broke its format in about 1998 or 1999. It's broken it at least one time since then, too. If you stored your novel in MS Word in 1988, good luck ever getting it back. ...

Shooshie

Actually, Microsoft snuck that feature back into Word 2011. It will open the oldest files by selecting "Recover text from any file" and formatting usually stays intact unless you used Fast Save back then. It helps to put the .doc extension onto the file. Not perfect but works for me. I don't know it Office 2016 retains this functionality. I have lots of Word 5.1 files (best version ever).

Of course, the worst major offender is Apple. Nothing opens AppleWorks, MacPaint, MacWrite or ClarisDraw? Huh?

There's a reason I still keep a G4 that dual boots OS 9 / 10.4.11.

mikehalloran wrote: Of course, the worst major offender is Apple. Nothing opens AppleWorks, MacPaint, MacWrite or ClarisDraw? Huh?

There's a reason I still keep a G4 that dual boots OS 9 / 10.4.11.

Funny I just was talking to a good friend who worked there for about 15 years and we discussed last night briefly Apple's slash and burn policy. One of their internal mottos was "If we don't make our products obsolete someone else will." Methinks they took that too far for sure.

The only real reason I'm getting Logic at some point here is because Logic 8 for me required their XSkey USB dongle to authorize the first time you open it up after installing. Now to run it at all on Yosemite I have to plug in the XSKey and type in the 20 odd digit serial number every time I open it. Apparently I'm lucky because most people can't get it to run at all on Yosemite.