MOTUnation.com

All my audiofile friends are into the Metric Halo interfaces. They have moved all their MOTU over to this...

http://www.mhlabs.com/metric_halo/products/mio/

One guy has 5 HD systems and for his personal systems likes the MHstuff better. But them again.. audio is like steak, it depends on how you like it cooked.

Jeff

One thing that appears to have been overlooked is the fact that you're mixing with Alesis monitors. While I agree that a nice set of converters could very likely help improve the quality of your recordings, I don't think that those monitors will do you any favors. Maybe part or your $5000 was allotted for monitors, if so, please ignore this post. If not, you would do well to invest $1000 or more in a nice set of monitors. The Dynaudio BM5A's seem to be getting a lot of buzz these days.

Anyway, just a thought.

-jordan

jmoore wrote:One thing that appears to have been overlooked is the fact that you're mixing with Alesis monitors. While I agree that a nice set of converters could very likely help improve the quality of your recordings, I don't think that those monitors will do you any favors. Maybe part or your $5000 was allotted for monitors, if so, please ignore this post. If not, you would do well to invest $1000 or more in a nice set of monitors. The Dynaudio BM5A's seem to be getting a lot of buzz these days.

Anyway, just a thought.

-jordan

Good point. If it were me, I'd upgrade monitors and pres first. A/D is definitely an important part of the chain, but you notice bigger improvements stepping up to good monitors and pres.

Anyone agree? Disagree?

Personally, I'd upgrade in this order:

1. MIc Pres

2. Converters

3. Monitors

My thoughts are that the better pres and convertors will improve what gets tracked initially. The monitors are subjective- hell, many of us still mix on NS-10Ms which, to me, don't sound good - but give a certain accurate perspective as do the Alesis boxes. And you're used to the "sound" so you'll be able to appreciate the new front end.

And in the end, even if you can't appreciate the upped front end initially, the quality will be there when played back on better systems or when you upgrade later. If you upgrade monitors first, you'll be able to hear the faults in your A/D/A and wish you'd gone the other way first. And you'd still have tracked through your old rig.

It's like the choice of an artist: new glasses or new paints and brushes first? While some would rather see better first, I would be more impressed with the new colors as seen through my old lenses. And others would appreciate the improvements when played back on their systems.

Just remember that you should still upgrade the lenses at some point- unless you really get good mixes on them after the pre/ADA upgrades.

My $.02

Chris

I've worked with a Traveler, Fireface, Echo Layla, and a few M-Audio soundcards and the Traveler is an excellent device in terms of quality. It ranks right up there with the RME gear. The MOTU HD192 is the flagship audio interface and uses the same A/D-D/A as Pro Tools HD 192.

Personally I cannot say that the Traveler is going to be equal or better than an Apogee, but what I *can* say is that of all the soundcards I've ever worked with the Traveler is in the top tier in terms of quality.

I agree with croyal's post. The front-end is the most important, because that's the part everyone hears regardless of their playback system. You can work around monitors just by being familiar with them and taking your mixes to different playback situations for a sanity check.

The Alesis aren't bad but aren't great, yet I wouldn't prioritise them as a major limiting factor compared to the pre's. My collaborator uses Alesis and things sound better on my KRK Rokit 6's (which I bought as "best buy" since they're only marginally inferior to most of the best $800 to $1700 range monitors from some of the good brands mentioned here). Between the two of us, my 2" iMac speakers, car stereos, etc., we keep things on track.

I invested in an octal mic pre this year from True Systems, which is a lifetime purchase. Octal mic pres are WAY more bang for the buck, as you're only buying the transformer once. IF you can afford it, it's worthwhile, unless you know for sure that you'll NEVER track a live drum kit or a live band. They also just came out with a single or dual channel mic pre (I forget which) at Winter NAMM.

I even use the True as a DI for my keyboard gear , bass preamp, amp mics, etc. The difference is ASTOUNDING! We both track with MOTU 828 mk II and get excellent results, but the quality mic preamp at the front-end makes the biggest difference of ANYTHING that we did.

There are other good brands as well, but I went for the most neutral sounds as that's my preference in preamps vs. coloured. The key thing to look out for is whether it can also accept a line level signal (as can the True). Although maybe you don't care if you're always going in with a digital signal for everything except your vocals.

As far as quality of converters, many people have said the Traveler is better than the 896 or 828 mk II. I get better quality with the 828 mk II than I did with the 896 mk I a few years back, so quality keeps improving across the board. I only picked the 828 mk II over the Traveler because the latter has its MIDI ports on the side, and I rack my gear. It can be done, but it's a bit awkward.

Any time you upgrade something in your signal path, it exposes weakness elsewhere, or from another point of view adds more value to upgrades performed later in the signal path. But croyal has it right in terms of the prioritisation of the three links in the chain.

Remember also that a good mic pre can be a lifetime purchase. Your digital gear is likely to recycle now and then, if for no other reason than the interconnection technologies are changing rapidly, and a few years on, we may find firewire gone and Ethernet the norm. These things happen. That's why the MOTU 896 has so many connector types on its rear .

Check out this site:

http://www.blacklionaudio.com

This guy does mods on the current generation of MOTU Firewire interfaces. He says the latest generation of MOTU FW devices, like the 828 MKII, use the same converters as Apogee products. It's the op amps which need to be upgraded, which he does, and for a very reasonable price.The op amps he installs are Burr-Brown which are top quality op amps.

I used to have a 1224, and when I got an 828 MKII I immediately noticed an improvement in the audio, both going in and coming out. And that's a "stock" 828 MKII, which for me is still pretty darn good.

As for what to get first - I think ALL aspects of your chain are equally important. Your converters, your mixing desk (if you use one) and your monitors. I had NS10's for a long time and they did suck and I hated working with them, and no, I never subscribed to that theory that if it sounded good on NS10's it sounded good everywhere. That to me is b.s., you can't hear a lot of stuff on NS10's, particularly low end, and the high end is incredibly fatiguing. I used Alesis Monitor Ones for awhile, those were horrid because their frequency response would change drastically depending on listening level, and the passive crossovers on them fried a lot and I was always replacing them. Had pretty good experiences with Event 20/20's, which I used for a long time with a Mackie SR24 4 board. When I bought my Soundcraft Digital 328 board, it was like getting a new set of speakers, very dramatic improvement, so that convinced me that the mixing desk is a huge factor, along with monitors. About four years ago I switched to Yamaha MSP10's, which I continue to use and love, sadly they've been discontinued. Currently, I don't think you can go wrong with Genelecs or the Event Studio Precision 8's.

Just wanted to add that since I made the jump to rosetta, my mixes have much more clarity and I can actually hear the space between the instruments.

bradswan wrote:Just wanted to add that since I made the jump to rosetta, my mixes have much more clarity and I can actually hear the space between the instruments.

Through your good monitors?

Sorry.

Looks like I'm the odd man out on this chicken-or-the-egg / "good monitors first vs. great A/D first purchase" debate.

But, I hold to my opinion nevertheless. I guess I have to know how everything sounds first. I mean, maybe I'm not getting the purest single ging into the box, but I still nedd to know how my not-as-pure signal sits my mix. And pure enough can be good enough for me -- so long as I can hear that's the case.

Anywho --

How about that Super Bowl XL? Anybody gonna be there? I have a track playing during the in-arena kickoff countdown. I'd be curious to hear whether or not it sucks.

muxlow, I also track (the majority, but not all of) my guitar/bass through POD Pros. I think you'll find that the difference between running analog out into a nice micpre through nice converters will be quite an improvement over the sounds you'll get from the digital out of the PODs.

Once you decide on an interface, you could probably find a place to rent a couple of nice pre's and try out the idea.

Happy Shopping,

MT

Anyone using this setup with DP? I 'm interested in how it's working - any latency issues? How's the sound? Does it all integrate with DP well?

Any opinions on the following would be appreciated - I am trying to decide what to go with for my A/D D/A setup for DP.

Here's my situation and what I am thinking:

I am just setting up DP now and have not used it at all yet.

I currently have a 2408mk3 and an AMEK/NEVE DMCLdigi (unused/brand new).

I am considering getting either a Rosetta 200 or MOTU HD192 and a Big Ben.

Things I'm curious about:
1. How's the Rosetta 200 and X-Firwire card setup working? Sounding?
2. Anyone have/heard the AMEK DMCLdigi? How does that compare?
3. HD192 with Big Ben - better/same as Rosetta and/or AMEK?

Thank you!

My two cents.

I love my motu ••••. All of it. When I could actually get them on the phone, over the years, when I needed them, they were great.

But my dream clock is the Apogee Big Ben. I feel I can trust what the other posters are saying about their Apogee products doing the clock job improvement. This is not a slouch on MOTU. It's just a shine on Apogee. I have used/heard/praised apogee stuff. If you want A/D, then you are not in the least going wrong with them. Their •••• is stellar. If you want bang for the buck, get a MOTU, don't worry about it. If you have the cash for teh Apogee and the ears, and foresee A/D possibilities, then figure that into your apogee choice.

I have never had a good experience with digidesign. When a local friend/shop owner asks me "when are you going to come over to ProTools," I always say "when I can't get the exact same converters and fidelityfor thousands less (the MOTU 192 stuff), their customer service doesn't suck (doubtful change there), and ProTools softwares gets more versatile and userfriendly than DP."

I don't see it happening. You see here I am a MOTU fan. But the hardware end of it will not in the least be compromised by apogee, and the clockng will be an improvement. And from what I've heard so will the conversions. That is what they do. On a pro level, not a consumer/pro level. That's what they do.

Hopefully the opinions are useful.

Jeff

When you win big, buy me a big ben for my MOTU and I'll love everyone.

muxlow wrote:I don't need to pay 50% more for a 3% increase in sound that you can only hear if you A/B two mixes on a $10,000 monitoring system. I just want quality stuff to the average ear that won't •••• out on me in a year...

Honestly, for what it sounds like you are wanting to do, the MOTU hardware is great! I have a 2408mkIII and it's a nice pro box with good converters. I wouldn't call it "high end" but it will give you TONS of I/O you can always connect to later (like a higher end Apogee converter - Rosetta 200.) You can also get a ton of mileage out of the 2408 by clocking it externally. If you're needing AES/EBU you could look at MOTU's "high end" converter HD192 with 12 analog Ins and Outs and AES/EBU. Much better buy than the Apogee.

For that matter, Apogee is WAY over priced for what you get. If you want true high end gear you should look at Mytek or Lavry. You could add 2 channels to the 2408 and use it as a clock and you'd have a GREAT setup!

I don't think you should worry about recording at 192k either. You won't hear the difference and you'll severely cripple your processing power and storage. 44.1k is just great. Don't believe the hype.

I'd also add Chrispick is correct about monitoring. Here's the rule:

The best pair of speakers are the pair of speakers you KNOW.

You can get great mixes on anything as long as you know how to make them translate. This is how so many great records were mixed on NS10s. Do they suck and are they very fatiguing... you better believe it. But translation is everything. The same could be said for your mix environment. You could have great speakers and put them in a new room and your mixes won't translate. I'm dealing with that right now. It's a very strange feeling.