MOTUnation.com

bayswater wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 1:34 pmI don’t think this excuses MOTU entirely. A lot of plugin makers don’t test with DP, as we see in their claims of compatibility (I see that PSP does). Perhaps MOTU could be somewhat proactive and do some of these tests themselves and initiate some sort of process with plugins that don’t work well with DP.

Agreed. I think a good place to start might be to disable all the plug-ins that have failed validation but were enabled anyway. Then go a day or two like that and see if that helps.

I go days without a DP crash, but Apple's Contacts just stops working at some point almost every time I use it.

Good luck getting it sorted Jim!

James Steele wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 2:01 pm Agreed. I think a good place to start might be to disable all the plug-ins that have failed validation but were enabled anyway. Then go a day or two like that and see if that helps.

Yes, it wouldn’t occur to me to enable a plugin that fails validation, and not expect problems. Odd thing is Logic will often fail plugins, and then pass them on the second attempt. But generally it’s fussier than DP, so I stay away from anything Logic fails (after a few attempts) whether DP likes it or not.

James Steele wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 1:19 pm I mean in your own post you acknowledge that MOTU informs you that "they might cause crashing." They might have put that disclaimer in for a reason. It might actually mean something.

I don't know if simply having AU plugs "at the ready" in MAS that have failed validation can contribute to instability when you haven't instantiated those plugs in a project... but it's possible.

Might try turning off all the "failed validation" plugs you've installed and see if things become more stable.

I completely understand the risk of running failed Plug-ins, James, and agree the warnings are there for a reason. In my OP, I implied if not declared I wasn't asking for a fix, but was offering my experience and workarounds if anybody else was having the same experiences.

But, I'll give that a try, and report back if it solves the crashing issue. I'm getting this crashing on both of my DP computers, and both have the same OS, plug-ins, etc.

bayswater wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 3:05 pm

James Steele wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 2:01 pm Agreed. I think a good place to start might be to disable all the plug-ins that have failed validation but were enabled anyway. Then go a day or two like that and see if that helps.

Yes, it wouldn’t occur to me to enable a plugin that fails validation, and not expect problems. Odd thing is Logic will often fail plugins, and then pass them on the second attempt. But generally it’s fussier than DP, so I stay away from anything Logic fails (after a few attempts) whether DP likes it or not.

Yep. I've noticed that. I think both DP and Logic will oftentimes pass a AU that failed the first time. I've also found, in both DP and Logic IIRC, that if you install several new plug ins at once some will fail during the "mass validation" but you can go back and re-evaluate the individually.

There are some plugs I've re-evaluated 3 or 4 or more times before the passed and at that point, wouldn't surprise me if they're still a little dubious. The ones that won't validated after multiple tries and you go ahead and elect to run them anyway seem like a good possibility of being the culprits here.

bayswater wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 3:05 pm
Yes, it wouldn’t occur to me to enable a plugin that fails validation, and not expect problems. Odd thing is Logic will often fail plugins, and then pass them on the second attempt. But generally it’s fussier than DP, so I stay away from anything Logic fails (after a few attempts) whether DP likes it or not.

I've seen a few of my failed plug-ins pass on a later validation, too.

I have a few that come in VST and/or VST3 and/or AU, and one type may pass and another fail. IDK what that means, but again, even the failed plug-ins run as well as I should expect. I've thought about contacting the developers to ask what gives, but since they work and I can't irrefutably finger them for causing crashes, it seems moot.

I just checked the list of failed Plug-ins, and none of them would bother me too much if I had to live without them. They're all pretty old with the tiny GUIs made for 1080 displays.

James Steele wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 3:09 pm There are some plugs I've re-evaluated 3 or 4 or more times before the passed and at that point, wouldn't surprise me if they're still a little dubious. The ones that won't validated after multiple tries and you go ahead and elect to run them anyway seem like a good possibility of being the culprits here.

That comports with an observation I made long ago: If you all of a sudden get crashing, the prime suspect is the last thing you installed.

Jim wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 3:06 pm

James Steele wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 1:19 pm I mean in your own post you acknowledge that MOTU informs you that "they might cause crashing." They might have put that disclaimer in for a reason. It might actually mean something.

I don't know if simply having AU plugs "at the ready" in MAS that have failed validation can contribute to instability when you haven't instantiated those plugs in a project... but it's possible.

Might try turning off all the "failed validation" plugs you've installed and see if things become more stable.

I completely understand the risk of running failed Plug-ins, James, and agree the warnings are there for a reason. In my OP, I implied if not declared I wasn't asking for a fix, but was offering my experience and workarounds if anybody else was having the same experiences.

I understand that, but the title of this thread can give the impression that the blame is squarely on DP when it may not be the case. People don't often read all of a post on a forum, so they see a topic that reads "DP 11.22 is the crashiest app I have" and then assume there's something wrong with DP, and they tell their friends, and so on... and it becomes rumor that DP is unreliable and crashy. So as a forum owner, I kinda try to be fair about these things. Nobody is going to necessarily read down into your post and read the part about how you have a whole bunch of third party plugs, some of which did not pass validation thus triggering a warning about crashes, but you enabled them anyway.

So I'm just trying to be careful about giving DP's rep a big black eye when there might be something going on specific to your systems. Because they're not really different as "both have the same OS, plug-ins, etc" including the plugs that may be causing issues. One extreme, impractical test would be to disable all non MOTU plugs and see if you still get crashing. Again, extreme, but I'd bet there'd be a dramatic decrease in the crashing behavior.

Odds are it's a plugins issue. Almost all crashes I run into these days are crashes upon opening projects and that's usually caused by DP being sensitive to a particular plugin. I can usually open the project after a few attempts. I can usually figure out what the problem plugin is and if I disable it there's no issue. But hey... I want to use that so I'll report the problem to MOTU and to the developer of that plug.

Di you mention what brand and model of audio interface you're using? Scratch that... just saw your sig.

Jim wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 3:14 pm...but again, even the failed plug-ins run as well as I should expect.

...but again, you're playing with fire. Just because they appear to be "working" doesn't mean that under the hood there's not a problem and you're not on the brink of crashing if certain conditions are met. Obviously, something's not right and those plugins that you enabled despite warnings that they may cause crashing just might... I dunno... guessing here... might be one place to look? Try disabling the "failed" plugs for a while and see if it helps.

Fair enough, James. I understand your intervention here, and appreciate your reasoning.

Given that disabling MAS before opening a project almost always results in projects opening does seem to suggest the issue is one or more plug-ins. I'll disable my failed plug-ins and start there and report back if I come to any solid conclusions.

Jim wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 11:51 am …
I did a drive search for a DP Crash Log, and found nothing of the kind except for a log of the time I last Force Quit. It might be illuminating to read a Crash Log, though. Good idea.

The MacOS no longer keeps these very long. You have to look for them right away or they'll be gone. I copy the contents and save them as .txt files so that I can store them elsewhere—makes them easier to attach to TechLinks.

Not completely off topic, but does DP not have the “Auto Send crash log to MOTU” behavior that it had in the past? The past couple of (rare) crashes I've had, I was able to find the crash log in Console without using the terminal trick that I've had to use in the past.

I have found 11.22 to be crashy as well, but so far I've only been working with files created in an earlier version. I plan to try working on a project that has crashed a few times by creating a new file using the Load command. I'm hoping it will make a difference. I'll report back at some point on how that woks out.

With that said, when I say "crashy" I'm looking at maybe once an hour or two, which is a lot for me. I usually don't crash DP at all.

Your friendly neighborhood Phil

James Steele wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 3:19 pm

Jim wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 3:06 pm

James Steele wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 1:19 pm I mean in your own post you acknowledge that MOTU informs you that "they might cause crashing." They might have put that disclaimer in for a reason. It might actually mean something.

I don't know if simply having AU plugs "at the ready" in MAS that have failed validation can contribute to instability when you haven't instantiated those plugs in a project... but it's possible.

Might try turning off all the "failed validation" plugs you've installed and see if things become more stable.

I completely understand the risk of running failed Plug-ins, James, and agree the warnings are there for a reason. In my OP, I implied if not declared I wasn't asking for a fix, but was offering my experience and workarounds if anybody else was having the same experiences.

I understand that, but the title of this thread can give the impression that the blame is squarely on DP when it may not be the case. People don't often read all of a post on a forum, so they see a topic that reads "DP 11.22 is the crashiest app I have" and then assume there's something wrong with DP, and they tell their friends, and so on... and it becomes rumor that DP is unreliable and crashy.

But it is, it would be dishonest to hide it. It's a fantastic program, but it really is exemplary in how crashy it can get. I implore you to get one crash from Bitwig, for example (it's sandboxed, but that makes it an even better contender). Back when I was a teenager, cracking software like eggs, I didn't get one crash with Ableton, maybe a few with Logic. DP is a whole another story. I like it the most, but it's really, really crashy, you can't deny that.
If other apps can handle plugins well without crashing, then it really is DP's fault.

DP reaaaally merits a good rewrite of its internals to deal with these memory safety bugs. Some things you just can't patch away if they're like good and tasty Swiss cheese.

plaukiu wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 7:16 amBut it is, it would be dishonest to hide it. It's a fantastic program, but it really is exemplary in how crashy it can get. I implore you to get one crash from Bitwig, for example (it's sandboxed, but that makes it an even better contender). Back when I was a teenager, cracking software like eggs, I didn't get one crash with Ableton, maybe a few with Logic. DP is a whole another story. I like it the most, but it's really, really crashy, you can't deny that.
If other apps can handle plugins well without crashing, then it really is DP's fault.

All I can tell you that I'm not having the crashy experience you're having, except with certain plugins when opening projects and I've isolated which ones do it and reported it to MOTU. That is something that needs to be worked out by MOTU as I've stated.

Nobody's HIDING anything here, in case you haven't noticed. The thread is still up along with the somewhat alarmist topic name which leaves out some context (OP ignored warnings and enabled plug-ins that did not pass validation and generated a warning that it could cause crashing). I've just added context... which probably very few will see. They'll just see the topic header.