DP 10.1 Where has 'Insert Loop' gone?

[bayswater]

I don't mean to diminish your concerns (which I admit, I don't understand), but they haven't lost touch with this user. MIDI clips, allowing you to easily define a group of MIDI note, without repeated use of selection, and then conducting any number of operations at the clip level, is something I've wanted for a long time.

They've addressed the long running complaint about relative snap without absolute snap.

Also, paying attention to at least the debate here, these have been done while leaving the original approaches available to those who want it.

And they've spent a lot of the effort in this update on bugs. Let's hope they continue to focus on bugs and get rid of more, including those new to 10.1, very soon.

[philbrown]

So sorry. Didn't mean it as a jab. Just repeating what you said . Get it...repeating.

Thank you, Phil, I should have known better!
I've been more stressed than usual dealing with various DP issues, even more than I've posted about.
With some lost hours and data, I'm back to 9.52 for the foreseeable future.

[Michael Canavan]

I don't mean to diminish your concerns (which I admit, I don't understand), but they haven't lost touch with this user. MIDI clips, allowing you to easily define a group of MIDI note, without repeated use of selection, and then conducting any number of operations at the clip level, is something I've wanted for a long time.

They've addressed the long running complaint about relative snap without absolute snap.

Also, paying attention to at least the debate here, these have been done while leaving the original approaches available to those who want it.

And they've spent a lot of the effort in this update on bugs. Let's hope they continue to focus on bugs and get rid of more, including those new to 10.1, very soon.

Agreed. I'm all in on the 10.1 improvements. It's simply less steps to loop a clip, and the same amount to pack MIDI into a Clip and loop it. DP had always had more steps to loop MIDI than other DAWs. That said a command like "Pack Selected MIDI into Clip and Repeat xx Times" makes sense as an alternative to what we had before.

[Phil O]

I'm with philbrown and spitfire31 on this one. Adding clips is not the issue. Removing loops, however, is a hinderance to some workflows, IMO. It was so easy to do and in a very musical fashion. What could be more musical than repeat signs:

||:LOOP THIS|

Old way: Make a selection, insert loop, enter number of times to loop. Easy.

New way: Make a selection, Pack into Clip, go to Clips window, Show Clip Editor from mini menu (if not already there), drag to set loop duration or enter manually, pull hair out trying to find how to set number of times to loop (haven't figured this out yet-if it even still exists). It might have something to do with the duration entry but that doesn't seem to make sense as it's measures, not number of times.

And...I can't figure out how to edit the loop data in the Events List.

Really, really??

[end rant]

[Phil O]

"Pack Selected MIDI into Clip and Repeat xx Times"

Where did you find repeat xx times?

[rhodeislandred]

I would like the "easy" loop functionality back also.
For DP users who have used the Set Loop command regularly, if you want to maintain editing control over those loops, you have to keep saving your file as DP 10.0 format, which can be done when using the Save As...command.

[Michael Canavan]

I would like the "easy" loop functionality back also.
For DP users who have used the Set Loop command regularly, if you want to maintain editing control over those loops, you have to keep saving your file as DP 10.0 format, which can be done when using the Save As...command.

You have editing control over the loops, right now only in the Sequence Editor. Select the upper right corner of any clip and you can dig out as many loops of the clip as you like. In fact after selecting an amount of loops it's much much easier to take out or add loop points, which used to require erasing the loop then setting a new amount etc.

The whole process is literally the same amount of steps.
Old Way-
select region in Sequence Editor to loop.
Hit menu or key command to set loop.
type in loop number.

New Way-
Select region to convert to Clip.
Hit menu or key command to convert to Clip.
Select and drag the upper right corner the amount of cycles you want the clip to loop.

The disadvantage is not having a type-able amount of cycles, the advantage is quickly changing the amount of cycles without repeating the process from the beginning, and visually Clips are much better IMO.

[bayswater]

I'm with philbrown and spitfire31 on this one. Adding clips is not the issue. Removing loops, however, is a hinderance to some workflows, IMO. It was so easy to do and in a very musical fashion. What could be more musical than repeat signs:

||:LOOP THIS|

Old way: Make a selection, insert loop, enter number of times to loop. Easy.

New way: Make a selection, Pack into Clip, go to Clips window, Show Clip Editor from mini menu (if not already there), drag to set loop duration or enter manually, pull hair out trying to find how to set number of times to loop (haven't figured this out yet-if it even still exists). It might have something to do with the duration entry but that doesn't seem to make sense as it's measures, not number of times.

And...I can't figure out how to edit the loop data in the Events List.

Really, really??

[end rant]

I agree that MOTU should have followed previous practice and left the previous workflow in place. But, if you set up DP to use MIDI in regions by default, you don't need to pack for the trip, and go to the Clips window. Just place the mouse near the upper right of the region to get the loop tool, and drag it to the right to create loops.

Maybe there are some disadvantages to having MIDI always packed into regions, but I haven't come across any yet. Perhaps there are some extra workflow steps for some operations, but surely that is offset by not having to constantly define MIDI phrases with every edit operation that doesn't involve a single note, or happens to coincide with the previous versions' arbitrary MIDI phrase parsing.

[Michael Canavan]

I agree that MOTU should have followed previous practice and left the previous workflow in place. But, if you set up DP to use MIDI in regions by default, you don't need to pack for the trip, and go to the Clips window. Just place the mouse near the upper right of the region to get the loop tool, and drag it to the right to create loops.

Maybe there are some disadvantages to having MIDI always packed into regions, but I haven't come across any yet. Perhaps there are some extra workflow steps for some operations, but surely that is offset by not having to constantly define MIDI phrases with every edit operation that doesn't involve a single note, or happens to coincide with the previous versions' arbitrary MIDI phrase parsing.

Selecting specific notes and option dragging them to another track in the Track Overview isn't possible with Clips, but it's trivial to unpack a Clip to do this. I'm really happy in general that they left the ability to not work in clips as well, for anything MIDI wise just played, or that never repeats etc. I would rather just see the whole thing. Plus and this is big IMO, Clips seem to only open in the Clip MIDI subwindow. You can't edit the MIDI from them in the regular MIDI editor.

In general I think this a great direction to go in, but a lot of little things are left out, the integration between old and new methods hopefully gets tighter, instead of just left as is. I would like it a lot more if you could edit MIDI Clips in the regular MIDI editor, with maybe lines like you get with Markers to show the Clip boundaries, but to only have the subwindow, which doesn't seem to have a key command to close, and doesn't close on it's own when you switch windows is half baked. My least favorite part of Ableton Live is that the MIDI window is always a subwindow, and with DP10.1 as it stands, it's like that with Clips. With Clips in general, they don't have reasonable quantize logic, so it's really about hitting it at exactly the right time, and it can stutter the audio to fire off a clips playing a soft synth, on a 12 core 3.34Ghz machine here. Clips don't have access to the scissor tool, so you can't edit them that way, and they don't loop in the Track Overview window. I think this could be a great thing, but IMO MOTU have to make Clips as elegant as they are in Live or Bitwig. I don't expect all features of those programs, but the UX of them is greatly appreciated for a reason. I really hope they solve this two MIDI editor issue, because to me this is getting kinda out of hand, two MIDI editors in Clip editor and MIDI editor, and two timelines in the Tracks and Sequence editor.

"Pack Selected MIDI into Clip and Repeat xx Times"

Where did you find repeat xx times?

The whole quote kind sir,

That said a command like "Pack Selected MIDI into Clip and Repeat xx Times" makes sense as an alternative to what we had before.

I was saying that they should have had that as a command menu and key wise for people who are used to working like that.

[Michael Canavan]

I'm excited by all the changes, but some things are big WTF's? I'm sure due to bugs or something etc. in beta, but...

The Content Browser has no play button, you simply click on the audio file etc. and it doesn't play when the sequencer is running? So a great idea with the new browser but with a step back or two from the original audio bowser.

Quantize when opened for MIDI Clips has no Preview, one of the cooler DP quantize features is missing.

Like I said probably due to bugs etc. when programming, but why isn't it possible to simply switch from Note to Clips in the Sequence Editor to pack and "unpack" a Clip? why have a new MIDI editor in general?

I just hope all future updates to DP are UX oriented little tweaks to make the whole experience a bit more refined, I would take that over MPE, or articulation maps.

[Phil O]

"Pack Selected MIDI into Clip and Repeat xx Times"

Where did you find repeat xx times?

The whole quote kind sir,

That said a command like "Pack Selected MIDI into Clip and Repeat xx Times" makes sense as an alternative to what we had before.

I was saying that they should have had that as a command menu and key wise for people who are used to working like that.

Sorry, Michael, I think you misunderstood me. It was a serious question. I'd very much like to repeat xx times, but I can't seem to find a way to do it. Have you found that functionality in 10.1 (regardless of how it's implemented)? And if so, where do I find it?

Phil

[Michael Canavan]

I was saying that they should have had that as a command menu and key wise for people who are used to working like that.

Sorry, Michael, I think you misunderstood me. It was a serious question. I'd very much like to repeat xx times, but I can't seem to find a way to do it. Have you found that functionality in 10.1 (regardless of how it's implemented)? And if so, where do I find it?

Phil

The key word here is should, Loops at the moment are only activated by hovering over the upper right corner of a Clip and click dragging. I was saying they should have had that as a menu option. Oh and you can in fact use the Event list to set exact amounts of the loop, they are beat based though, so you would want to times an 4/4 clip by 4 to get exact amounts, i.e. for 4 repeats of a 2 bar Clip (8 beats) you would want the clip length to be 32.

To be clear here I shouldn't have used the word repeat either, since repeat in DP copies data. Repeat in the Edit Menu (Command R on mac), makes copies of the MIDI or audio with a pop up menu, just like it always did, and if you're opposed to Clips I suppose you could just use that instead. It's really not that bad to pack a Clip and hover, click drag to loop something though.

[Phil O]

That's exactly the info I was looking for.
Thank you Michael and sorry for the confusion. I was looking for the old functionality (i.e., repeating a loop an exact number of times, not beat based) and thought you found it but were suggesting a different implementation. Mea culpa.

This clips thing has gotten me flustered. I have no problem with adding functionality but when they take away something I use every day it's frustrating and disrupts workflow to have to learn a new routine.

Philippe

[HCMarkus]

I've always used the Repeat function in lieu of Loop anyway, so the change isn't that big of a deal for me. If the production calls for it, I will Repeat a section across a tune, then erase where the section is not desired. Maybe I'm missing something, but this seems like the best approach for me and my workflow.

Having never used Clips, the new functionality is interesting, but I'm not planning on bothering how to grok it, at least initially. I watched the MOTU video on Clips... if the music Brendon is working with in that demo is an indication of the stellar productions I would realize if I used Clips, I may never use them.

Don't think I don't feel your pain, you who have loved the Loop function and used it to its fullest. I have been bothered by random small changes in DP10 from the 9.52 that has served me well since its release. When default states are changed across versions, hair pulling often results. And when a functionality that one relied on for years suddenly disappears, it definitely causes frustration.

[Michael Canavan]

I've always used the Repeat function in lieu of Loop anyway, so the change isn't that big of a deal for me. If the production calls for it, I will Repeat a section across a tune, then erase where the section is not desired. Maybe I'm missing something, but this seems like the best approach for me and my workflow.

Honestly once people get used to Clips, for repetitive MIDI or audio it's better. What does need to happen IMO is a "print clip as real audio or MIDI"

Having never used Clips, the new functionality is interesting, but I'm not planning on bothering how to grok it, at least initially. I watched the MOTU video on Clips... if the music Brendon is working with in that demo is an indication of the stellar productions I would realize if I used Clips, I may never use them.

I don't think I've heard a demo song for any DAW ever that was anything more than glorified Muzak. I wouldn't base my impression of clip sequencing on that.
One of the big advantages to Clips in Ableton Live and it will be similar in DP10 here is to break a song into the basic parts and quickly rearrange it on the fly to try out different things. Another thing is to use it to do things like live theatre queues. Instead of using a sampler you're using an entire sequencer, way more flexible. Obviously it's a great tool for heavily quantized electronic music, but that's not the only thing you can do with it.

Don't think I don't feel your pain, you who have loved the Loop function and used it to its fullest. I have been bothered by random small changes in DP10 from the 9.52 that has served me well since its release. When default states are changed across versions, hair pulling often results. And when a functionality that one relied on for years suddenly disappears, it definitely causes frustration.

I think this is inevitable, that DP has to forge it's way into the future, and fight the good fight with the big four (PT, Logic, Live and Cubase), for market share. Those obviously aren't the only DAWs out there, you've got Bitwig, Reap that DAW we don't mention here, Reason, Studio One is gaining serious traction.. plus lessor known ones like Samplitude, waveform, Muzys etc. DP is well known for a fantastic set of tools, a rabid user base, and being old school as it can be with user interface etc. It's changing, and not everything will be smooth, but it's very possible if they continue to refine things like Clips they get a whole new audience, because let's face it, I know hardly anyone under 30 using DP.
If they spend the resources on UX then I think the suffering will be worth it. As it stand some things are left hanging like I previously posted here. In general what they are doing is right up my alley though, a blend of old MIDI sequencer ideas with new ones, along with a legacy of features no other DAW has.