MSI Ranges

[papageno]

http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6&m=124437

Hey everyone, I am kaumann from MakeMusic forum, I warned Finale users in the MM forum to not waste money on MSI like I did.
I also posted this about ver 1.1 there:
http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6&m=137339

I am working with professional instrumentalists, using full ranges of instruments. Of course the composer should use the extreme notes carefully (in most cases) but nevertheless, I am using full ranges in my pieces. Also it is stupid to pay for MX4 to be able to correct MOTU's mistake. For now I keep using Kontakt2 and its included sample library.

Please do contact MOTU about the issue, the more the better. I have done it since they released ver. 1.0. In 1.1 the issue is still here.
This is really a shame because even the opportunity to extend lowes/highest sample to a few neighbour notes would be enough to make MSI usable.

So lets contact MOTU and demand them to provide the tool they have promised us: symphonic orchestra for professionals.

[lamboguy]

For the $$, SI is amazing.

As for the ranges, if I need a note outside a given range I just use a pitchbend for that note or passage

Cheers,

Fred

[papageno]

As for the ranges, if I need a note outside a given range I just use a pitchbend for that note or passage

Thanks for the idea, I didn't even think of that.
The question is- how to define it in notation application?

Lets say i need d but the highest note in MSI is c. To tell notation app to play c and display d is to put double flat to d and hide it. Then one must use an expression with defined pitch bend value. And on next note has to have expression with pitch bend value zeroed again.

Would be easier to just correct this bug.

[lamboguy]

Yes, I agree with you -- it would be easiest to just fix it.

I spent a little more time with this last night and I too think the ranges are simply not wide enough. They may be ok for a high school group, but certainly not professional, and that's motu's market.

Also, although it's a workaround, the whole pitchbend fix is very cumbersome and time consuming. Something the computer should be doing automatically to help us -- not the other way around!

btw, even though I don't use the notation function, I see your point.

Cheers,

Fred

[Eleventh Hour Sound]

I really appreciate what MSI offers for the money but also agree that the limited note ranges limits it's desirability... There's time when I would like to stick with MSI but have to use Philharmonik to get a better range...

I would like the option of being able to extend the ranges even if it's "at my own risk" <Grin>

[lamboguy]

I would like the option of being able to extend the ranges even if it's "at my own risk" <Grin>

I'm with you completely. It would be nice to simply hit a button to get a few more notes instead of having to do a full gigue.

Frankly, if most of the track sounds good a weird note here or there won't make a difference...especially at the end of the range -- just like in the real world.

I'm voting for the option to extend the ranges "at our own risks."

Cheers,

Fred

[mhschmieder]

Hmm, I thought this problem was a red herring at first, due to misunderstandings about transpose ranges, etc.

But last night I needed a cowbell specifically at F# to match the key of the music I was working with.

Strangely, although the manual lists Cowbell 1 going from C3 to G3, I couldn't get anything above F3 to sound. Sorry, this is from memory, as my manual is at home, but the point is that the published range is small but the actual range seems to be smaller still. I might have listed the wrong octave.

I tried all the other members of the bell family, but couldn't find an F# in any of them! So I just gave up and recorded at F and will eventually audio shift the track and hope it doesn't also mess up the timing.

Now I must express some naivete about whether percussion instruments are notated with a transposition or not. I have not formally studied orchestration, and have recently bought some books and am studying, but percussion notation is the furthest from my current knowledge set.

[papageno]

Hmm, I thought this problem was a red herring at first, due to misunderstandings about transpose ranges, etc.

I can assure you, it is not the case.
I have been working as a composer for 15+ years. I write for acoustic instruments and I have academical music education. In my work one has to have a detailed knowledge about instrument ranges, trasnsposed vs. sounding pitches etc etc.
Because MSI is about playback, lets leave transpositions out and talk only about sounding pitches. MSI cannot produce needed pitches for about 1/3 of the instruments involved.
I also send Motu support a suggestion that they should buy a book... for example 'Instrumentation and Orchestration' by Alfred Blatter and see what are the ranges used by professional players. Motu staff doesn't have to be professional about acoustic instruments, all they need is
GET HELP

[lamboguy]

I also send Motu support a suggestion that they should buy a book... for example 'Instrumentation and Orchestration' by Alfred Blatter and see what are the ranges used by professional players. Motu staff doesn't have to be professional about acoustic instruments, all they need is
GET HELP

lol! Yes, a book indeed.

Well, what the heck. I have a feeling they know what the instrument ranges are. They did a heck of a lot of work to get MI together, that's obvious. It's really pretty good.

Maybe it has more to do with the fact that many players may not be able to control notes in the extreme ranges well enough for sampling. I really don't know, I'm just guessing. I mean, obviously some players can, but I really doubt the "Heinz Holligers" of the world are going to be doing sample work for MOTU -- if if they were, I doubt MOTU could afford them.

I would just like to be able to "artificially" extend the range for certain notes. Just let me use the highest/lowest note to fill out the range, for the occasional times when I need it. Seems like that would be easy to do.

Cheers,

Fred

[papageno]

Maybe it has more to do with the fact that many players may not be able to control notes in the extreme ranges well enough for sampling.

I can assure you this is not the case here. Definitely not. There are also notes missing which are quite easy to play. The lowest note of english horn, for exmple. The upmost semitone missing in harp- huh, that isn't hard to play. They just did'nt know/care/think that harp can play up to f#. Also, some instruments have bigger ranges than modern instruments have, that is ok, doesn't hurt.

I would just like to be able to "artificially" extend the range for certain notes. Just let me use the highest/lowest note to fill out the range, for the occasional times when I need it. Seems like that would be easy to do.

Indeed, I have also proposed MOTU this approach. They can keep the soundbank as is, the range can be extended in MSI.app.

[enigmatunes]

I would just like to be able to "artificially" extend the range for certain notes. Just let me use the highest/lowest note to fill out the range, for the occasional times when I need it. Seems like that would be easy to do.

Indeed, I have also proposed MOTU this approach. They can keep the soundbank as is, the range can be extended in MSI.app.

FWIW, I'm fairly certain this would be the only way to increase the range of anything without issuing a new 8 gig .dat file. I'm not well-versed in how such things work, however, so I suppose that an alteration of the .dat file may need to occur in order to accomplish any manipulation of sample playback. If that is the case then I don't suspect a simple MSI update could address anything that's being discussed here.

[Shooshie]

Disappointments in the instruments include:

••• narrow trumpet ranges
••• short Oboe range
••• short soprano sax range
••• clarinets that are unusable in rapid passages below about a G3. The samples came from a player who was tonguing for a slow, sustained sound, and the attack is draw-out, making the note slow to sound. Attempt to put it in 16th notes, and you get practically no sound, but what sound DOES come out for each note is delayed, as if you're playing 32nd note offbeats.
••• narrow guitar range
••• short contrabass range (strings)

and many others. What I HAVE learned, however, is that in each case there is usually another similar instrument that DOES have the range you need, though it may not have the same sound as the instrument you prefer. For instance, there are multiple oboe samples. The best sounding one for normal passages only goes up to a C, but you can select another and go up to at least an E. Maybe higher; I forget. Same with Trumpet. Unfortunately, none of the clarinets use good attacks at low register, except the staccato, which is inappropriate for fast slurred passages.

I have gone back to my Kurzweil for several of the instruments, or I will substitute it when I need to, but overall, I'm very pleased with MSI. It's a fine set of samples, responds well to expressive controllers, and I'm putting it to very productive use.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

I also send Motu support a suggestion that they should buy a book... for example 'Instrumentation and Orchestration' by Alfred Blatter and see what are the ranges used by professional players. Motu staff doesn't have to be professional about acoustic instruments, all they need is
GET HELP

lol! Yes, a book indeed.

Unfortunately, the books are little help. Most of the orchestration books I've seen have described instrumental ranges appropriate to 6th graders. Astonishing, sometimes, that we live 100 years past Ravel, and yet they still give the ranges as if for Mozart's orchestra. I'm sure there are exceptions, but who's going to find the right book and send it to MOTU? Besides, the samples were done in France. Someone's going to have to find a French orchestration book that has all the modern ranges (often called extended ranges, but which are considered standard for any contemporary player).

I was just amazed when I first tried to play an oboe up to high C#. That's inexcusable.

It would be nice if they'd sampled the soprano sax up to at least an altissimo A, (sounds the G five ledger lines above the staff), but maybe they don't play that high in France.

Shooshie

[papageno]

Unfortunately, the books are little help. Most of the orchestration books I've seen have described instrumental ranges appropriate to 6th graders. Astonishing, sometimes, that we live 100 years past Ravel, and yet they still give the ranges as if for Mozart's orchestra. I'm sure there are exceptions, but who's going to find the right book and send it to MOTU?

You made a little list, but you left out the highest note of harp (pedal tuned #), few low notes of oboe, lowest note of english horn.... the list is very long.
I even pointed out a book to Motu that has more or less correct modern ranges. That is Blatter's "Instrumentation and Orchestration".

[mhschmieder]

Thanks Papageno for correcting who made that suggestion. I certainly didn't recognise the quote as it was attributed to me!