Future of DP?

[terrybritton]

MLC - Well, I know how Mike's posts about the history of MIDI standards put you to sleep -- I just wanted to make sure it wasn't at a bad time!

(Your humor "clutter" is always welcomed on my end! Keeps me smiling.)

Terry

[Gravity Jim]

Survive what?
Another year?
'Til Jesus comes back?
The looming zombie plague?

This discussion crops up in some form or another on a regular basis, and it's just as meaningless now as it has been each time previously.

[Michael Canavan]

This year ... really?

Trying to recall the number of times MOTU made such announcements about DP other than Winter NAMM... it's still never, right?

They promised us improvements in time stretch/compression in January without announcing DPX. Let's see if they make good on that first. No reason to believe that they won't.

The vagueness of the time stretch/compression improvements timeline is why I'm open to them announcing something like a new version outside of Winter NAMM. They intentionally seem to have not mentioned whether those new features are going to be part of a paid upgrade or free update, which makes me think that's mostly due to a few new developers being hired in the last few months by MOTU. i.e. their timeline is off course slightly.

I would bet you're 100% right, but who knows? they had a large set of things in line obviously, (NextGen, new audio engine pitch/time rendering etc.) when they had some people leave and others were hired so...

[MIDI Life Crisis]

MLC - Well, I know how Mike's posts about the history of MIDI standards put you to sleep -- I just wanted to make sure it wasn't at a bad time!Terry

Au contrare! I started MIDI Life Crisis in 1988 (BMI) and named it that for a reason. I actually know the history, having lived it, and feel as "at home" with MIDI and in discussions about MIDI as I do with music. They are, in fact, inseparable if you're seriously making music with a computer. If the discussion was about MIDI, that'd be fine by me (still boring, but at least with the possibility of leading somewhere interesting).

All this discussion will lead to is one of two conclusions. Yes, DP will live on, and; No, DP will die on the vine. Neither is any more useful than someone's lotto picks tomorrow. Still, it provides an outlet between sessions to blow off some steam.

Back to my :arrrr:s, fairies, indians, and crocodile. BTW, never smile at a crock of ANYTHING!

[Michael Canavan]

Actually, I really appreciate their coding work and porting challenges. I am just pointing out that a ton of the MIDI features are the same as they were 26 years ago, and that little has been added. Much of the architecture remained the same. Of course, I would not want them changing stuff around on me when I already liked the features they had, but adding a FEW more filters that most other DAWs handling MIDI inputs offer would really make my day! And I'd really like to be able to control which ports were visible (and taken up) by the program, so I can use MIDIQuest in DP.

Small things but shocking to me they have not been added in 27 years!

But admittedly, what it does do it does quite well.

Terry

In bold, yes, and in doing so DP would easily take the lead there.
Yes, DP has limitations in terms of the way a single MIDI track handles MIDI. Mostly like you mention in terms of not being able to shut out MIDI events, whether it be assigning only certain notes, ports or MIDI messages to a MIDI track. One of my pet peeves in DP, the way it handles blocking CC messages, you cannot block just a single CC message in DP, you can convert it to another CC message or block all (for instance cc7) messages only.

And again, DP steals all my MIDI ports so I do not have a free one for MIDIQuest to use. No option to control that behavior. And because it forces all ports open, I cannot use Native Instruments tools (Maschine, S-Series keyboards) in anything but Multi-Record, because something acting like a MIDI feedback loop occurs in Single Record mode, which is an Omni (including every port in existence) mode. Senselessly, I might add.

To be fair, Single record mode is meant to be Omni, it's not a mistake or senseless. I'm not sure how they could add what you want and still have it work flawlessly with any port or MIDI hardware assigned to a single track etc. What you want is more like an exclusive Record mode, that only allowed a single port and track to record or am I missing something here?

The Komplete S-series keyboards looked pretty cool to me for Kontakt libraries especially, no hunting an pecking for key commands etc. but the 8 controllers only and lack of ability to function with DP or Bitwig made me not want to buy into it. Plus and this is huge to me, NI have a poor history of supporting their products in general. They abandon ancillary software and hardware all the time. The only thing I rely on them for is Kontakt, Reaktor and now Maschine since it's an overwhelming hit. If tomorrow they announce they're not longer developing Massive, Guitar Rig, FM8, Absynth, or Battery I would not be surprised in the least. I own/owned three pieces of hardware by them, Kore 1, Rig Kontrol 3, and Maschine Studio. Only Maschine Studio is currently supported. They won't even support Rig Kontrol 3 in MIDI mapping only mode in their Controller Editor anymore, and attempt to blame OS X for that, but I sincerely doubt that, they probably cheated out on some hardware aspect that wasn't fully supported, then got frustrated writing drivers for it, it wouldn't be the first time, they ignored all Apples warnings about Intel development and continued to use Codewarrior for years previous, (They were warned against continuing to use Codewarrior) and acted like they were just sad little puppies caught off guard by Apples corporate secrecy. I definitely have a love/hate relationship with NI, great software, poor choices sometimes, and almost zero "legacy" support. In other words, and I'm sorry if this is harsh, I respect and think your hoping for better MIDI handling is great! but don't believe any BS NI hands you about how it's the other guys fault that they made choices in their development that leave out certain DAWs, OS's etc. NI could have easily written around any limitations in any DAW, they chose not to, because that's how they roll.

[terrybritton]

To be fair, Single record mode is meant to be Omni, it's not a mistake or senseless. I'm not sure how they could add what you want and still have it work flawlessly with any port or MIDI hardware assigned to a single track etc. What you want is more like an exclusive Record mode, that only allowed a single port and track to record or am I missing something here?

No, I understand the use of the Single Record mode, and it makes great sense -- IF I could select which ports I wanted it to use in the Bundles. I can't -- it grabs them all whether I use them or not. (I usually use a MIO adapter for talking to most programs, and the 828 mk3 hybrid's MIDI port to talk to MIDIQuest -- both connected to the "brains" - an old 8-port SE by MusicQuest.) Since DP "takes over" both ports, the 828 is not free to give to MIDIQuest. It is all about port selecting -- all other DAWs allow me to checkmark the ones I want to use and un-check the devices I do not want to use. Un-checked ports become free to be used by other programs.

The Komplete S-series keyboards looked pretty cool to me for Kontakt libraries especially, no hunting an pecking for key commands etc. but the 8 controllers only and lack of ability to function with DP or Bitwig made me not want to buy into it.

The S-88 is a dream machine used with either Maschine (I have a Maschine Jam) or via Komplete Kontrol. What the knobs do with the automatic labels is just amazingly freeing. But it is not my only controller - for sliders, buttons and even more knobs I have the Maschine Jam, an Akai MPK249, a Behringer BCF2000 and an old Peavey PC-1600x that sits on top of the S-88 that I use for articulations a lot. I have controllers coming out of my ears.

And the S-88 works just fine with DP as long as I am in Multi-Record mode, which I would likely have used anyway eventually. It just was a surprise that took me a week to figure out that Single-Record mode created that MIDI feedback loop with the controls-port of the S-88.

If you get one someday, now that they seem to be trying to "reform", I posted a button-mappings post at the NI forum for the S-series when used with Maschine.

Terry

[terrybritton]

MLC - Well, I know how Mike's posts about the history of MIDI standards put you to sleep -- I just wanted to make sure it wasn't at a bad time!Terry

Au contrare! I started MIDI Life Crisis in 1988 (BMI) and named it that for a reason. I actually know the history, having lived it, and feel as "at home" with MIDI and in discussions about MIDI as I do with music. They are, in fact, inseparable if you're seriously making music with a computer. If the discussion was about MIDI, that'd be fine by me (still boring, but at least with the possibility of leading somewhere interesting).

Ahhhh - I can write SYSEX dump messages in my sleep!!!


(...after which I usually wake up screaming, but that is another matter, more to do with the circumstances surrounding WHY I was writing SYSEX dumps in my sleep.)

My first MIDI box was a Commodore 64 running Bank Street Music and some other program, MIDI adapter and all (into a little portable YAMAHA keyboard I had). Not many people were using Commodore 64's for MIDI back then! (All Atari-heads everywhere...) I still have the Bank Street Music disk, booklet, and original packaging. Worthless, I know, but sentimental value...

Loved those days!


Terry

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Yeah, I hear you. My first MIDI rig was the sequencers in Ensoniq SQ-80, Mirage, and five Ensoniq EPSs that were given to me by the companion exchange for screen credit.

On a computer, I used an Atari ST1040 and STacy laptop and did my tempo maps in a JL Cooper PPS-100. So I had to use a calculator and my brain to figure tempos, and, of course, SYSEX in my sleep was also a thing. Sometimes, I use to drop the SY (along with my sox)... LOL

[terrybritton]

Yeah, I hear you. My first MIDI rig was the sequencers in Ensoniq SQ-80, Mirage, and five Ensoniq EPSs that were given to me by the companion exchange for screen credit.

On a computer, I used an Atari ST1040 and STacy laptop and did my tempo maps in a JL Cooper PPS-100. So I had to use a calculator and my brain to figure tempos, and, of course, SYSEX in my sleep was also a thing. Sometimes, I use to drop the SY (along with my sox)... LOL

A still favorite hardware synth I keep in my rack is an original ESQm with switchable expansion cartridge, both sides full of patches. Ensoniq rocked! The EPS was one of the very few keyboards with full poly-aftertouch. My partner had one - we did several live performances with that thing (She on EPS and Korg Wavestation EX, me on "original" Korg Wavestation I still use).

I wrote a program that used every bit of memory in my TI programmable calculator for figuring out quantization moves. Still have that in an old notebook - and have the TI (I never seem to get rid of anything!)

I wanted a license plate that said "SYSEX" on it, but that was not allowed in Connecticut.

But back to the topic! DP-ing is dead - Long live DP-ing!!!!

Terry

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Oh yeah! I had two WSAD racks and a keyboard. The digital version, BTW, is even better )except no Vocoder input). But the patches are GREAT and sound so much better than the original hardware.

Between that stuff, my Yamaha DX-100 (sill have and use it) and my Kurzweil keyboards, I could conquer the world. Lest i forget the Performance 1, Proteus 2/orch, and Z-Synth from Emu.

Now? I have a Mac... LOL

[terrybritton]

Oh yeah! I had two WSAD racks and a keyboard. The digital version, BTW, is even better )except no Vocoder input). But the patches are GREAT and sound so much better than the original hardware.

Between that stuff, my Yamaha DX-100 (sill have and use it) and my Kurzweil keyboards, I could conquer the world. Lest i forget the Performance 1, Proteus 2/orch, and Z-Synth from Emu.

Now? I have a Mac... LOL

I am so impressed by the Korg Legacy Wavestation VSTi that I took my Wavestation SR out of the rack. So much easier to use, and no SYSEX dump errors! This VSTi version actually loads MANY of my patch bank libraries I accumulated over the years.

Emu is another one - still have my Pro/formance 1 Plus that I got at the same time I bought the Wavestation - it still layers great with Wavestation patches!

May their capacitors never go bad!

Terry

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I typed Proformance but the spell checker "fixed" it.

Oh yeah, I had the SR too. I forgot. now it's all in the trash can,. literally and figuratively.

[terrybritton]

Yes, now as long as we all keep upgrading, the music will never die!

Terry

[Michael Canavan]

The S-88 is a dream machine used with either Maschine (I have a Maschine Jam) or via Komplete Kontrol. What the knobs do with the automatic labels is just amazingly freeing. But it is not my only controller - for sliders, buttons and even more knobs I have the Maschine Jam, an Akai MPK249, a Behringer BCF2000 and an old Peavey PC-1600x that sits on top of the S-88 that I use for articulations a lot. I have controllers coming out of my ears.

And the S-88 works just fine with DP as long as I am in Multi-Record mode, which I would likely have used anyway eventually. It just was a surprise that took me a week to figure out that Single-Record mode created that MIDI feedback loop with the controls-port of the S-88.

If you get one someday, now that they seem to be trying to "reform", I posted a button-mappings post at the NI forum for the S-series when used with Maschine.
Terry

Don't get me wrong, I've been tied to NI since Absynth 1.5 and Komplete 2. I no longer believe anything they say through experience. They said right after ditching Kore that they weren't abandoning things like they did with Kore hardware, no more Spektral Delay, Akoustic and Electric Piano, Pro 53, B4 type abandonments. Then recently they stopped developing the MIDI controller bridge software for Rig Kontrol 3, and have long since stopped updating the software. They were selling them 3 years ago at the least. They lie, that's all there is to it.
Take two other companies with legacy software and hardware Ohm Force and Metric Halo. Ohm Force have FX that probably rarely sell that they constantly update, their monophonic distortion for instance. Still updated for modern OS's. Metric Halo are going to release upgrade paths for all their gear, from 15+ years back even to thunderbolt or USB3 from Firewire. They of course still write drivers for their hardware.
NI do none of that. I love Kontakt, Maschine, loved Kore, liked Guitar Rig and love Rig Kontrol, but Rig Kontrols days are numbered because NI play that way, even after saying they were changing their ways. I see no reason to trust them with anything that isn't a run away hit like Konakt or Maschine. My guess is Guitar Rig is next on the abandonment list, along with Absynth, if we're both putzing around these forums in 5 years lets see.... Sorry to come across like a hater but I've been riding this NI pony for a while, and she's never going to be tame.

[terrybritton]

The S-88 is a dream machine used with either Maschine (I have a Maschine Jam) or via Komplete Kontrol. What the knobs do with the automatic labels is just amazingly freeing. But it is not my only controller - for sliders, buttons and even more knobs I have the Maschine Jam, an Akai MPK249, a Behringer BCF2000 and an old Peavey PC-1600x that sits on top of the S-88 that I use for articulations a lot. I have controllers coming out of my ears.

And the S-88 works just fine with DP as long as I am in Multi-Record mode, which I would likely have used anyway eventually. It just was a surprise that took me a week to figure out that Single-Record mode created that MIDI feedback loop with the controls-port of the S-88.

If you get one someday, now that they seem to be trying to "reform", I posted a button-mappings post at the NI forum for the S-series when used with Maschine.
Terry

Don't get me wrong, I've been tied to NI since Absynth 1.5 and Komplete 2. I no longer believe anything they say through experience. They said right after ditching Kore that they weren't abandoning things like they did with Kore hardware, no more Spektral Delay, Akoustic and Electric Piano, Pro 53, B4 type abandonments. Then recently they stopped developing the MIDI controller bridge software for Rig Kontrol 3, and have long since stopped updating the software. They were selling them 3 years ago at the least. They lie, that's all there is to it.
Take two other companies with legacy software and hardware Ohm Force and Metric Halo. Ohm Force have FX that probably rarely sell that they constantly update, their monophonic distortion for instance. Still updated for modern OS's. Metric Halo are going to release upgrade paths for all their gear, from 15+ years back even to thunderbolt or USB3 from Firewire. They of course still write drivers for their hardware.
NI do none of that. I love Kontakt, Maschine, loved Kore, liked Guitar Rig and love Rig Kontrol, but Rig Kontrols days are numbered because NI play that way, even after saying they were changing their ways. I see no reason to trust them with anything that isn't a run away hit like Konakt or Maschine. My guess is Guitar Rig is next on the abandonment list, along with Absynth, if we're both putzing around these forums in 5 years lets see.... Sorry to come across like a hater but I've been riding this NI pony for a while, and she's never going to be tame.

PANIC!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, it works now well enough for my needs, both Maschine Jam and the S-88. I'll just have to wait and see. I know - it is a management issue... all the regular developers I've corresponded with were plenty decent folks and very helpful. I hope their culture is changing, but who can know?

I don't blame you a bit - if I had jumped onto Kore (which by all accounts is truly an amazing piece) I would be mightily upset at this point myself. The S-series keyboards are selling like hotcakes, I'm told by Guitar Center and Sweetwater, and so is the Jam, so let's hope this bodes well for those items.

Terry