Mach V versus Kontakt

[lordtoranaga]

I have just gotten into both in the last month. I am using kontakt 1.5 , and mach5 1.2. Both are good. I love being able to have multiple outs in mach5, very useful.
I am choosing kontakt, because of the easy programing of an exteral conroll. Kontakt has a great MIDI learn feature, that mach5 lacks.

I love mach5, but kontakt wins out, because of the MIDI learn feature.

I might switch sequencers, so as to be able to take advantage of the kontakt multiple outs.

[myronman]

What do you use multiple outs for? Sending audio to other tools or hardware? I'm completely new to this, so I don't understnad what the value of sending multiple outs to anything is. Can someone point me to an explanation or some example scenarios that I would need multiple outs for. Like in the example of the drum machines. Why can't you do that with kontakt's single out method?

[loff56]

Hey, just wanted to get in on this thread because I'm considering the same two options. (I have DP 4.5 too)
Can Mach V load my EWQLSO Silver library? (With ease)
I thought someone told me that Kontakt 2 did support multiple outs, but let me confirm what you mean by "it doesn't". Does that mean that If I load a violin multi from my EWQLSO then I can't patch to the individual violin samples?
I have this very problem with the Kompakt player that came with the EWQLSO, so if Kontakt doesn't solve that problem then it doesn't make sense for me to go to that.
Thanks for your help.

[sdfalk]

It does support multiple outs in Logic Audio, but
not in Digital Performer (yet)
Right now DP doesn't support multiple outs in the Audio Unit format, Logic does.

[sdfalk]

What do you use multiple outs for? Sending audio to other tools or hardware?

Look at it this way;
One instance of MachFive in DP
will allow (for example) 16 different instruments
on 16 different MIDI channels.
Kontakt (in Audio Unit format in DP) will only
allow one.
So 16 instances of Kontakt to essentially do the
same thing as one instance of MachFive.
Bit more CPU friendly with one instance of
MachFive one should think.
Mind you, if you use a VST "wrapped" version of
Kontakt in DP you can use multiple outs.
At least that's how I think it works.

[myronman]

Thanks SD,

That really answered my question. Now I understand. I called Kontakt tech support and they say they are currently working on that problem and the fix is in development, and it should be released *soon* in a patch.

[loff56]

Cool, this is all very helpful, but I have one more question:

Will Mach Five load my East West Quantum Leap Symphony Orchestra (Silver) sample library?

Will it load the multis as they appear in Kompakt?

Does anyone have experience using EWQLSO (Silver, Gold or Platinum) with Mach Five? How well do they work together?

Ok, so that was four questions not one, but thanks in advance for anybody's response.

[Kubi]

Originally posted by Jason Loffredo:
Cool, this is all very helpful, but I have one more question:

Will Mach Five load my East West Quantum Leap Symphony Orchestra (Silver) sample library?

Will it load the multis as they appear in Kompakt?

Does anyone have experience using EWQLSO (Silver, Gold or Platinum) with Mach Five? How well do they work together?

Ok, so that was four questions not one, but thanks in advance for anybody's response.

The short answer is: No.

You can convert Kontakt libraries into MachFive, but the results are hit-and-miss, since MachFive currently does not support key switching.

Also, as opposed to, say, Giga libraries, where the samples and the preset data are very "clearly" linked, there have been instances where, due to file names, MachFive used the same set of samples for various Kontakt presets when converting, rendering the resulting M5 presets useless.

Lastly, the built-in Kompakt instruments are an integral part of EWQLSO protection scheme. While you can open the instruments in Kontakt, I'm not sure you could even try and convert them into M5. Haven't tried it though.

Since EWQLSO libraries come with built-in players that work well inside DP, there are really no reasons for legitimate owners to convert them into another format. If you want multi-outs, I recommend using the VST version of EWQLSO and using Audioease's VST wrapper. The current wrapper with the current EWSO Kompakt version inside DP4.52 works like a charm.

Just to clarify: "no multi-outs" means you can't buss the 8 different parts of the EWQLSO player to 8 different audiotracks or busses AT ONCE IN ONE INSTANCE of the player. If you want to, i.e., add compression to the orch bass drum, but not the violins, or if you want to add highs to the flute, but not the bassoon, you have to print/freeze the tracks separately first, or load another instance of the EWQLSO player.

<small>[ July 02, 2005, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: Kubi ]</small>

[loff56]

Thanks for the help Kubi!!
One more clarification though.

I guess it's not so much the multiple outs I'm interested in as much as the ability to play each instrument within a single instance of Kompakt (or Kontakt) with different MIDI channels or even patch changes. This is the main problem I'm having here. I load a violin multi (for example), five articulations come up in Kompakt, but whether I play into it with MIDI channel 1, 2, 3, or 16, I get all five articulations playing at once. I can solo each instrument in Kompakt which would let me hear just that one, but there's no way to even automate switching the solos in DP (4.52). Is this a problem that the VST Wrapper would fix as well? (Or perhaps it's a problem that upgrading to Kompakt would fix?) Or am I totally missing something within Kompakt or Digital Performer? (I feel like I've searched everywhere within each program though.)
I guess the multiple outs would be helpful as well, but it's not as critical when I'm dealing with just trying to switch articulations of the same instrument. I could deal with freezing each instrument seperately as audio for now, but trying to freeze every different articulation is just maddening.

Sorry to go a little off topic here, (I realize this is specific to Kompakt/Kontakt and DP and not so much Mach Five vs. Kontakt), but this thread seems to be helping me a lot.

Thanks again.

[mhschmieder]

Useful thread; just discovered this forum tonight after being a MOTU user for over three years. It was referenced in a Harmony Central review telling how awful Mach Five is.

I was going to purchase Mach Five due to its more intuitive and natural workflow, sliders vs. rotary knobs for envelopes, and many features that were unique to the product. But the Harmony Central reviews gave me cold feet, along with the hassle of the iLok requiring one to be hooked up to the internet for a cumbersome back-and-forth handshake on each session.

Then Kontakt 2 came out, and after downloading that demo, it seems the two products are now almost at parity feature-wise and with respect to GUI friendliness. But I still prefer Mach Five's interface and workflow, and am a Digital Performer 4.52 user.

As for price, they are about the same if you do it right: If you buy Garriton Personal Orchestra, newly-announced Finale 2006, or newly-announced Sibelius 4, or any other product that I don't know about that includes Kontakt Player, there is a MUCH cheaper upgrade option from Kontakt Player to Kompakt 2.

I'm still undecided on notation tools too, as my preference is for fairly-new Notion, but I'm starting to lean towards the cleaner integration path and better industry support for a GPO/Kontakt/Finale solution (even though I hate Finale, but since I hate Sibelius too and especially hate the Kontakt Player Silver and Kontakt Player Gold whereas Finale 2006 ships with a large subset of GPO, and since Finale 2006 adds major new features and usability changes vs. Sibelius 4 mostly just improving the toolbar look and feel and providing better fonts, it seems overall that Finale is currently offering the better "package" -- unless Notion follows suit and provides full AU/VST plug-in support and integration with a Kontakt Player sample set).

Sorry for getting off-topic a bit with notation software, but I consider all of this to be related in the fast-evolving world of music software, where each product formerly in a "niche" is ever increasing its feature set to become a full-fledged MIDI/audio/notation/sampler/loop product, or improving its DAW integration and soft sampler integration with other music software products.

[Kubi]

Originally posted by Jason Loffredo:
Thanks for the help Kubi!!
One more clarification though.

I guess it's not so much the multiple outs I'm interested in as much as the ability to play each instrument within a single instance of Kompakt (or Kontakt) with different MIDI channels or even patch changes. This is the main problem I'm having here. I load a violin multi (for example), five articulations come up in Kompakt, but whether I play into it with MIDI channel 1, 2, 3, or 16, I get all five articulations playing at once. I can solo each instrument in Kompakt which would let me hear just that one, but there's no way to even automate switching the solos in DP (4.52). Is this a problem that the VST Wrapper would fix as well? (Or perhaps it's a problem that upgrading to Kompakt would fix?) Or am I totally missing something within Kompakt or Digital Performer? (I feel like I've searched everywhere within each program though.)
I guess the multiple outs would be helpful as well, but it's not as critical when I'm dealing with just trying to switch articulations of the same instrument. I could deal with freezing each instrument seperately as audio for now, but trying to freeze every different articulation is just maddening.

Sorry to go a little off topic here, (I realize this is specific to Kompakt/Kontakt and DP and not so much Mach Five vs. Kontakt), but this thread seems to be helping me a lot.

Thanks again.

Sounds to me you're doing something wrong. You either have the MIDI channels set incorrectly in the various slots in Kontakt, or else you have them set to "omni". Regardless, what you're describing is easily done in both MachFive and Kontakt, and since it's not working for you, there is something amiss. That usually ends up being pilot error, in my own painful personal experience...

[Kubi]

Originally posted by Mark Schmieder:
since Finale 2006 adds major new features and usability changes vs. Sibelius 4 mostly just improving the toolbar look and feel and providing better fonts, it seems overall that Finale is currently offering the better "package".

I am a Finale user, but am now seriously considering switching to Sibelius 4, because of the dynamic linking of parts and score (an old Mosaic feature btw, and it took long enough for someone to finally catch up.) This just as an OT aside on your assertion that Sibelius 4 is a minor upgrade... not quite the case.

Also, usually the "built-in" players a la Garritan or EWQLSO do not count to qualify for "upgrade" pricing. I may be wrong, but you may want to check this with NI before you possible end up getting burned.

As for the MachFive worries: what review is that? You do NOT need constant online access to run MachFive, just when you update your iLok. Once the iLok has the authorization, all it needs is a USB port in your Mac.

I've been using MachFive for a good while now and it's given me very few if any problems. Biggest shortcoming is the lack of original sample content, but I use mine mostly to run my old SampleCell libraries, and to "roll my own" original sample presets. It does both very well, and very quickly.

[mhschmieder]

Thanks for the pointers. The info on having to do the handshake each session was from a sales agent at Guitar Centre who said he finally gave up on it as a result.

Interesting comment on switching from Finale to Sibelius. Finale will now have full AU/VST integration; Sibelius will not. Not sure what dynamic linking is but will read my earlier printouts when I get home tonight. At any rate, I'm gussing that mach Five can be used within Finale 2006, but not from within Sibelius 4, to play back one's score via quality samples.

I like what I saw of Mosaic but it seems to be a dead product. I'm trying to get a last-minute badge for Summer NAMM, and if I go (the air ticket is a non-issue as I have a Southwest Airlines frequent flyer award that I can use), I'll ask MOTU if they plan to keep the product alive and port to OS X.

It's too bad there's no demo of Mach Five, as that would make the difference for me vs. just reading what others say. The sample content is not critical as these sorts of products rarely ship with anything useful. Kontakt 2 (sorry for the earlier typo!) does ship with some Vienna Strings and a few Elektrik Piano samples. Not the reason to choose one product over the other though!

[mhschmieder]

Yikes, I guess you're referring to Dynamic Parts, which is a feature I just assumed was present in all notation products as a matter of course! That's a deal killer for me for Finale 2006 then, if it doesn't support it. I've gotten used to doing this with QuickScribe in Digital Performer, which I assume is based on Mosaic.

Anyway, it would be nice if MachFive developed plug-in relationships with the notation software products so that one could alleviate some of the cost by buying the notation software and then the upgrade license for MachFive, since one can do this with Kontakt. Maybe MOTU hasn't done this because they have something up their sleeve with Mosaic with possible product packaging?

[qo]

Getting back to the original thrust of the thread, and regarding the multiple-outs issue for AU, apparently DP 4.6 now supports this. So, we can remove this limitation from consideration (well, unless you're in an environment where upgrading DP presents too much of a risk).

I use both Kontakt 2 and Mach5. My general impression is that K2 is more useful out of the box due to a generally better library, but that it's more demanding of CPU than Mach5. My CPU observation is subjective, I've not conducted any tests).

Kontakt seems also to be better supported by more library developers than Mach5 (my experience based on a couple library group buys over at the Logic Users Group site, e.g. the PMI piano libraries, but I may be off base here...). Also, based on the following Google searches:

Sample library Mach5
Results 1 - 10 of about 521 for Sample library Mach5.

Sample library "Mach 5"
Results 1 - 10 of about 4,810 for Sample library "Mach 5"

Sample library kontakt
Results 1 - 10 of about 169,000 for Sample library kontakt