Does DP do MIDI plug in automation????

[James Steele]

I see a feature request being sent to MOTU. Another one of many that will hopefully make DP all things to all people.

[toodamnhip]

Is there a DAW that does? Just curious?

I'm curious too.
What I kind of remember is once being excited about a 3rd party MIDI plug in, but I may be mistaken, now that could be cool. Some sort of "add on" to DP.
DP also has some cool under the hood features in it's MIDI when using the groove quantize stuff. I have used it occasionally to match real time drum performances by making custom MIDI grooves from drum audio and using those grooves to match MIDI snares and kicks etc.
So there is a lot to like about DP MIDI, even with this flaw in it's implementation. I wonder if there is some programing difficulty in the MIDI specification that makes it impossible to change parameters via automation?

[FMiguelez]

It's just that the manual continualy boasts about the "unification" of DP's MIDI and audio.

I think this behaviour unification is almost, but not quite there yet. Areas that need work to accomplish that goal are the one mentioned in this thread, MIDI mute tool, MIDI regions, unification of automation (see the thread I linked to above), etc.

I think DP would be even better if those things had the same features in the MIDI and audio worlds. That would be closer to real unification.

[James Steele]

Let's just all get along. I'm required to tell people to be civil in here. Some people have workflows that are different than our own. They may not make sense to us. But if they want a feature... by all means... let's have the feature. Let's try again to be civil.

I'm just a human being. Granted nobody forced me to create this forum. But there are days where I wish to God I didn't so I wasn't having to try and keep the peace. Personally, there are a very few people that get under my skin on this board too and make me wish I didn't have to read it. I would suggest that if you're in that position, there is a feature that I believe will simply hide that person's posts and you'll never have to read them. Unfortunately for me, as the board owner, I am sort of obligated to see what people are posting on the board.

I'm going to go have coffee now.

[toodamnhip]

It's just that the manual continualy boasts about the "unification" of DP's MIDI and audio.

I think this behaviour unification is almost, but not quite there yet. Areas that need work to accomplish that goal are the one mentioned in this thread, MIDI mute tool, MIDI regions, unification of automation (see the thread I linked to above), etc.

I think DP would be even better if those things had the same features in the MIDI and audio worlds. That would be closer to real unification.

I sometimes wonder if MOTU doesn't improve certain MIDI issues due to compatibility issues for old session files etc. FOr example, MIDI mutes. MOTU has to know by now we've all been clamoring for it. For many years. Maybe it isnt as simple to add certain features or fix certain issues? Who knows, all speculation I suppose.

[bayswater]

It's just that the manual continualy boasts about the "unification" of DP's MIDI and audio.

You can automate parameters linked to MIDI messages, but not the parameters of the plugin itself. That is by and large the same as automation for audio, isn't it?

[FMiguelez]

It's just that the manual continualy boasts about the "unification" of DP's MIDI and audio.

You can automate parameters linked to MIDI messages, but not the parameters of the plugin itself. That is by and large the same as automation for audio, isn't it?

Not really. I was talking about all the things one can't automate with MIDI. Basically, you can only use all the mixer automation modes with audio, but not MIDI (latch, region latch, etc.). I know tat other thread is quite long, but all MIDI-related shortcomings were discussed there.

For instance, there is no sane way to disable CC45 or CC 24 (with the Automation Setup window). This is a MAJOR PITA! One can only do that with volume and pan.

[toodamnhip]

It's just that the manual continualy boasts about the "unification" of DP's MIDI and audio.

You can automate parameters linked to MIDI messages, but not the parameters of the plugin itself. That is by and large the same as automation for audio, isn't it?

OK, so how does one make "MIDI messages" for the bypass of the quantize plug, or any other? I don't know this is possible.

[bayswater]

OK, so how does one make "MIDI messages" for the bypass of the quantize plug, or any other? I don't know this is possible.

You can't. Can you automate changes in quantizing in audio?

[FMiguelez]

From that other thread, these points remain unresolved, and as things stand now, we can NOT do any of the following:

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 30#p431060

1.- Because I want to be able to temporarily and selectively disable or enable ANY CC I want with the Automation Setup dialog box.
This is SO important with a VI such as Vienna Instruments.

2.- Because I want to be able to record any CC with my controller using the mixer’s record-automation features, just like if they were 10 or 7. I want to be able to use Touch mode, Latch mode, Range Touch mode, etc.
I want to be able to move fader #3 (wich sends CC 35) and make as easy and intuitive to mess with it as if it were MIDI volume.

[EDIT]
2a.- Because I want to use any of the advanced mixer's record-automation features to perfect, overdub and tweak my CCs performances with my Novation controller.

3.- Because I want consistency in the way one records and plays ALL CCs (simply pressing the Automation Record button to record them and using the Automation Play button to engage or disengage it).

As far as I'm concerned, not being able to do any that, without ridiculous workarounds, is a big shortcoming.
Can you imagine trying to mix some audio like that, without any of those features?

I really hope MOTU addresses this some time soon. Like I said, modern VIs DEMAND this kind of flexibility, but when one can't mute (temporarily disable) any other CC parameter except for 7 and 10, then that's a problem.

How do you guys deal with any of the points in that list???? I'll be REALLY curious...

[toodamnhip]

From that other thread, these points remain unresolved, and as things stand now, we can NOT do any of the following:

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 30#p431060

1.- Because I want to be able to temporarily and selectively disable or enable ANY CC I want with the Automation Setup dialog box.
This is SO important with a VI such as Vienna Instruments.

2.- Because I want to be able to record any CC with my controller using the mixer’s record-automation features, just like if they were 10 or 7. I want to be able to use Touch mode, Latch mode, Range Touch mode, etc.
I want to be able to move fader #3 (wich sends CC 35) and make as easy and intuitive to mess with it as if it were MIDI volume.

[EDIT]
2a.- Because I want to use any of the advanced mixer's record-automation features to perfect, overdub and tweak my CCs performances with my Novation controller.

3.- Because I want consistency in the way one records and plays ALL CCs (simply pressing the Automation Record button to record them and using the Automation Play button to engage or disengage it).

As far as I'm concerned, not being able to do any that, without ridiculous workarounds, is a big shortcoming.
Can you imagine trying to mix some audio like that, without any of those features?

I really hope MOTU addresses this some time soon. Like I said, modern VIs DEMAND this kind of flexibility, but when one can't mute (temporarily disable) any other CC parameter except for 7 and 10, then that's a problem.

How do you guys deal with any of the points in that list???? I'll be REALLY curious...

Sounds like a whole new component of DP might have to be designed. It would surely put DP back in the cutting edge of MIDI.

[bayswater]

Fair enough, FM. All these things are good. But they are not much about automating the parameters in the MIDI plugins which are more linked to Region menu commands than CCs.

Maybe a DP version of Cubase's expression, or Logic's articulation would help out with this.

[Shooshie]

Time marches on.

If you want to get MOTU on board with some of the more radical changes, I have some advice for you:

• First, create a VERY clear picture of what you want. Don't cloud it with associated features, data types, or procedures, but stick to a very clear picture of the ONE thing you're trying to express.

• Secondly, express why this is needed. What lack of capability is pressing you and pushing you to find a new solution? Why is this universal, or why will it be universal in the near future?

• Third, show an example of how you think it could be done. Again, be careful to stay centered on the data type, the desired feature, and the anticipated procedure that makes it work. Give their programmers a lead to follow, something that's logical enough that they'll say "oh yeah, we could do that pretty easily!" or even "wow, we're going to have to do that before someone else beats us to it and steals our thunder!"

If you follow that advice and send it to MOTU, there is at least a good chance that it will be discussed at the table. I've seen MOTU add several dozen features that I've suggested over the years, and while I probably was not the only one suggesting most of them, I am pretty sure that at least some of them were actually added because of the way I explained them in my letters. In fact, I was told as much after a version back in the late 1990s which contained a couple-dozen of my suggestions. (thank you, Les Quindipan)

I agree that the pressures of massive control over massive numbers of tracks are creating a need for new ideas, new ways to control and edit all aspects of DP and our data in real time. While many of us have adapted with work-arounds and complicated techniques, it's got to get easier and faster for everyone. The trouble is that we are dealing with basic technologies that were developed in the early 1980s. MIDI is reminiscent of command-line terminals, 300-baud modems, and dot-matrix printers. Considering its primitive data, it's amazing that we've taken it so far. Automation data is probably closer to what we're looking for in the ability to control music on our machines. We want something that behaves more like vector graphics than bitmaps. But anything we create to replace MIDI must be a superset of MIDI to preserve our archives of lifetimes of work. Either that, or there must be translators. Anyway, MIDI is showing its age. As long as we use it, certain changes will not be practical. But we're struggling with data overload. It's time to get the data out of the way, and to make these things happen in real time with smooth editing, automation, and performance control.

But I believe that this will require a change away from the MIDI protocol, and that means it will not happen overnight. This has been tried before, and it basically went nowhere. How do you change an entire industry? How do you get everyone to adopt a new data protocol and make an amazing new music sequencer, editor, and performer that makes possible the hundreds of tracks and takes that are common in modern music scoring and recording techniques?

Well, I don't have the answer. But for those who believe they do, I believe my advice will help you get that across to MOTU or others who might the interested in developing the next generation of music and audio production tools.

Shooshie

[FMiguelez]

But I believe that this will require a change away from the MIDI protocol, and that means it will not happen overnight. This has been tried before, and it basically went nowhere. How do you change an entire industry? How do you get everyone to adopt a new data protocol and make an amazing new music sequencer, editor, and performer that makes possible the hundreds of tracks and takes that are common in modern music scoring and recording techniques?

Well, I don't have the answer. But for those who believe they do, I believe my advice will help you get that across to MOTU or others who might the interested in developing the next generation of music and audio production tools.

That is definitely sound advice, Shoosh. Thank you for taking the time for writing that.

I will definitely consider your points when I put my ideas in order in my head, so I can write an effective an easy to read suggestion letter for MOTU.

I really think those changes will be made eventually... I don't know if MOTU will be the pioneer or the follower, but some protocol changes are inevitable, as VIs continue to grow in CPU demands, complexity, system requirements and features. We will need a change to keep up with all the new possibilities

[toodamnhip]

But I believe that this will require a change away from the MIDI protocol, and that means it will not happen overnight. This has been tried before, and it basically went nowhere. How do you change an entire industry? How do you get everyone to adopt a new data protocol and make an amazing new music sequencer, editor, and performer that makes possible the hundreds of tracks and takes that are common in modern music scoring and recording techniques?

Well, I don't have the answer. But for those who believe they do, I believe my advice will help you get that across to MOTU or others who might the interested in developing the next generation of music and audio production tools.

That is definitely sound advice, Shoosh. Thank you for taking the time for writing that.

I will definitely consider your points when I put my ideas in order in my head, so I can write an effective an easy to read suggestion letter for MOTU.

I really think those changes will be made eventually... I don't know if MOTU will be the pioneer or the follower, but some protocol changes are inevitable, as VIs continue to grow in CPU demands, complexity, system requirements and features. We will need a change to keep up with all the new possibilities

It seems that right now, the industry and MOTU, are just keeping up with all the new technology. MOTU releasing thunderbolt gadgetry like I was hoping for in another thread I spoke on.
So after MOTU catches up with the new Macs, 64 bit, PC versions and thunderbolt, hopefully they will look up and say..”wow-all this power and all these amazing VI’s with such OLD technology??, hell no...let’s innovate”....