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Re: Optimizing DP for fast response

Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 7:07 am
by Shooshie
DaveB wrote:I've noticed something strange in DP's performance when using VePro. I have a very large template which uses two instances in the VePro Server; one for Orchestra with 30+ instances of Kontakt; and one for Omnisphere, RMX, etc. I have 12 or so Event Input plugins and about 90 stereo audio tracks coming from VePro into DP. Now, sometimes when I open a session and the buffer is on anything under 512, I get the processing meter red-lining even when DP is idle. But if I delete the 90 stereo tracks that are receiving audio from VePro and then "undo" -returning all 90 tracks - the processing meter instantly drops down to barely a blip. Even when playing back a voice/track heavy section the meter barely gets above halfway. Weird.
The other thing that seemed to make a huge difference for me was turning off multi-processor support in Kontakt and letting VePro take care of how many cores to use.
Very strange. I wish you'd contact MOTU about that. To my ears, that sounds like a memory leak building up around the tracks, which gets released when the tracks are deleted, and when you replace them, it starts from the minimum again.

Whether that's an accurate assessment or not will have to be the judgment of the DP development team, and they'll only know about it if someone tells them.

Shoosh

Re: Optimizing DP for fast response

Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 9:04 am
by frankf
DaveB wrote:I've noticed something strange in DP's performance when using VePro. I have a very large template which uses two instances in the VePro Server; one for Orchestra with 30+ instances of Kontakt; and one for Omnisphere, RMX, etc. I have 12 or so Event Input plugins and about 90 stereo audio tracks coming from VePro into DP. Now, sometimes when I open a session and the buffer is on anything under 512, I get the processing meter red-lining even when DP is idle. But if I delete the 90 stereo tracks that are receiving audio from VePro and then "undo" -returning all 90 tracks - the processing meter instantly drops down to barely a blip. Even when playing back a voice/track heavy section the meter barely gets above halfway. Weird.
The other thing that seemed to make a huge difference for me was turning off multi-processor support in Kontakt and letting VePro take care of how many cores to use.
Are you using DP8.02? In 64 bit mode? I've turned off all memory managers for VIs and am letting DP handle memory. Then again, I don't have so many Kontakt instances.
Apologies if your sig has info. I on Tapatalk and can't see sigs.

Frank


Frank Ferrucci

Re: Optimizing DP for fast response

Posted: Mon May 13, 2013 10:10 pm
by DaveB
Very strange. I wish you'd contact MOTU about that. To my ears, that sounds like a memory leak building up around the tracks, which gets released when the tracks are deleted, and when you replace them, it starts from the minimum again.
Whether that's an accurate assessment or not will have to be the judgment of the DP development team, and they'll only know about it if someone tells them.
I might just do that.
Was curious as to whether anyone else had experienced similar?
The other weird thing is that it I don't have to delete/re-instate all 90 audio-in tracks for it to work. I can do it with as little as 10 of them - but not always the same 10! It changes each time I open DP. It's like each time the session opens one or more tracks are bum tracks.
You mentioned a memory leak, is track count related to memory?
Are you using DP8.02? In 64 bit mode? I've turned off all memory managers for VIs and am letting DP handle memory. Then again, I don't have so many Kontakt instances.
Apologies if your sig has info. I on Tapatalk and can't see sigs.
No probs Frank, just updated my sig anyway!
I am using DP 8.02 in 64-bit mode. I don't have any VI's within DP; they are all housed within VePro. I started using Vienna Ensemble before DP8 was released to get around the 4gb limit in DP 6/7 etc.
I've never used Kontakt's memory server as VePro is 64-bit, rather it seems to be a CPU problem and not a RAM problem. It's just hard to nail down the culprit when DP, VePro and Kontakt are all using some kind of multi-processor support.

Re: Optimizing DP for fast response

Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 1:07 am
by Rick Cornish
i'm going to seriously consider making my next DAW all-PC (after 15 years of mac-only). crazy talk, i know, right? but seriously, i was shocked by how powerful my PC was once i set it up this past fall.
Here's hoping Tim Cook will have an announcement this summer about a replacement for the current Mac Pros. Apple has ignored the pro market for too long, though I suspect their shareholders don't much care.

Re: Optimizing DP for fast response

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:49 pm
by malditoyanki
studio_651 wrote:
i hear you about wanting to keep it all in one machine. i spent a LOT of money maxing out my mac pro (faster processor, RAM, SSDs, a 6G mini-SAS pcie card and mercury rack pro from OWC, etc.) in an effort to keep my setup to one computer. but i've realized that if you have a lot of instruments that you want quick access to, it's worth it to use a VEP slave. i wish i would have just done that in the first place and saved some of the money i spent tricking out my mac pro, but live and learn i guess! at least now i know that PCs aren't as hard to build or maintain as i thought, and you can definitely get a lot for your money that way. plus, this way i'm flexible platform-wise in case either PCs or Macs start lagging behind the other. in fact, my experience with the power of my PC has been so good that once DP is stable on windows (which at this rate probably won't be for a couple of years), i'm going to seriously consider making my next DAW all-PC (after 15 years of mac-only). crazy talk, i know, right? but seriously, i was shocked by how powerful my PC was once i set it up this past fall. 34 kontakts (with 16+ instruments each via LASS' ARC) and 25 VI Pros! and even during busy cues, VE PRO's meter only goes up to about 45-50%. and even with 64 GB of RAM and 4 SSDs, it's still the same price as a starter mac pro with no RAM or hard drive upgrades. just a thought! : )
Dude...I did nearly the exact same thing with my 2010 six core westmere. I'm now strongly considering making my next machine a PC. I swore off running multiple CPU's years ago and there's no going back for me. I ditched VEpro with DP8 being 64 bit and run EVERYTHING inside DP8.

It's majestic.

Problem is...the westmere CPU's are showing their age. With a one CPU setup you need every once of horsepower. That AND the fact apple has abandoned PCIe slots...the dark side's warm embrace may be calling me home.

Re: Optimizing DP for fast response

Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:29 am
by Chris T
studio_651 wrote: 3) disable any event input or aux return tracks to/from VEP if you don't need them. for example, if you rarely use a harp, or that sixth kontakt instance of percussion, disable the MIDI channel (event input plugin) that feeds it and/or the stereo audio channels that return to DP from VEP. they'll still be routed and ready to go if you need them, but in the meantime you can make things run a little quicker.

4) try to use as few busses/subgroups/aux channels/plugins as possible when working at low latency. this is very important.

6) use very fast drives (SSDs running at 6G connection speed if possible - OWC has hardware for this via pcie card) for audio and video files, and separate where your video files / DP project folders / sample libraries are.
Studio_651: I know this thread is old, but if you get this, I have a a few questions regarding your (very useful) optimization tips. I've be looking into getting a new Mac Pro since my current system is giving me some serious performance issues. My setup is a big, cumbersome template with hundreds of MIDI, Audio and Aux tracks (for simultaneous Audio stem printing from internal VIs in DP8 and from external mac Minis). Here's my other post regarding some details about my setup:

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... =4&t=56449

I figured that it's mainly a CPU issue, but I'm sure there are DP / VEP settings that could improve my workflow speed.

My questions are, regarding:

3) When you say "disable" any VEP Event Input track, do you mean just "take it out of play"? What about Unassigning the Event Input plug entirely? Wouldn't this be more beneficial (though more of a hassle) ?

Does muting MIDI / Audio tracks in DP actual save on CPU? I've definitely found that with audio plugins (e.g. Altiverb), and VIs, uninstantiating them (by assigning their output channels to 'none') definitely saves on CPU power. Does simply muting these tracks (especially VEP Event Inputs) make a difference, or should they also be disabled (i.e. "Unassigned").

Furthermore, does the existence of an uninstantiated plugin on a track use CPU at all, (i.e. is it better to delete unused plugins altogether and re-load them when needed, albeit again, more inconvenient) ?

4) I think some of my problems stem from my many aux channels, busses and stereo audio channels. Does anyone know what might be a 'safe number' of these before DP starts getting 'tired'

5) I use SSD drives on my Mac Minis for streaming sounds, and they are stellar. Does anyone use SSDs on their Mac Pros as their WORK drive (i.e. on which you save your DP sessions) ? Would this speed up DP at all? I was under the impression that SSDs perform best (and most stable) in their "read" functions as opposed to "write"…

Thanks in advance!

CT

Re: Optimizing DP for fast response

Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:15 pm
by HCMarkus
5) I use SSD drives on my Mac Minis for streaming sounds, and they are stellar. Does anyone use SSDs on their Mac Pros as their WORK drive (i.e. on which you save your DP sessions) ? Would this speed up DP at all? I was under the impression that SSDs perform best (and most stable) in their "read" functions as opposed to "write"…
I use an SSD for my project/audio file drive. Projects load and save a lot quicker. This is particularly nice when DP does an autosave, and the bigger the project, the more benefit will be realized. Also, backups (to rotating drives) are a little zippier. Other than that, I can't say I've noticed a difference.

I believe the concerns some have expressed over SSD endurance are significantly overstated. No single user scenario can approach the read/write intensity of an SSD in a server environment.

Re: Optimizing DP for fast response

Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 2:36 pm
by studio_651
hi CT,
thanks for shooting me an email - you're right, i don't check this forum very often these days, and i've been crazy busy finishing up a score so i'm just now coming up for air after several months of 16 hour days - ugh!

regarding your questions, i definitely don't know it all, and i'm constantly learning by tweaking when i get a chance. plus, what might work for my system might not work for yours, but i'll try to help where i can. "your mileage may vary" is never truer than when you're dealing with system optimization haha!
3) When you say "disable" any VEP Event Input track, do you mean just "take it out of play"? What about Unassigning the Event Input plug entirely? Wouldn't this be more beneficial (though more of a hassle) ?
just taking it out of play won't release the system resources as far as i can tell, because DP has to still be poised & ready for you to "un-mute" it. i meant that you would actually click the little blue dot on the far left of the track name in the tracks window (the "ENA" column) which disables the track completely (you don't need to change their assignment to "none" or anything like that - the blue dot is enough). a word of warning though: i learned the hard way that doing this with a VE Pro Event Input plugin aux channel will undo your MIDI track assignments which don't come back when you re-enable it, so i've stopped doing this (rough lesson to learn - had to reassign SO MANY MIDI tracks in my template haha!). but what you can do as a quick and easy way to release some resources is to disable any unused "returns" from your slaves and also hide all tracks you're not using from your mixing board. it's crazy how much better DP runs with a lean & mean mixing board. for example, i rarely disable my strings, brass, winds, or percussion returns from my slave, but i'll often keep my "STRX" (for odd VI strings like charango, ukulele, dulcimer, etc.) and "TUTTI" (for big patches like cineorch or symphobia that include several orchestral sections) channels disabled and hidden unless i actually need them.
Furthermore, does the existence of an uninstantiated plugin on a track use CPU at all, (i.e. is it better to delete unused plugins altogether and re-load them when needed, albeit again, more inconvenient) ?
i'm not totally sure, but i think that the more tracks you have, whether you're using them presently or not, the heavier the burden on DP's "snapiness". disabling them like i mentioned above, or unassigning their audio outputs will take care of most of this, but i think all those tracks add up a little bit at a time. kind of like having a bunch of kontakts loaded up with patches and purged - they still take up a certain amount of CPU and RAM per instance even when you're not using them because they need to be ready to be used, and the host automatically reserves a little bit of resources for them.

i've found that MIDI channels don't drag as much on DP as audio/aux/instrument channels do though. i have probably 400-500 MIDI channels in my DP template, but usually only around 8-10 aux channels are ever being used (most are ve pro returns). i have a folder of audio tracks pre-routed for recording stems, and a folder of pre-routed subgroups ready to be enabled and shown in the mixing board. but most of the time they don't get used and i think having them ready to go outweighs the drag they have (not much) on the system while sitting dormant.
4) I think some of my problems stem from my many aux channels, busses and stereo audio channels. Does anyone know what might be a 'safe number' of these before DP starts getting 'tired'
this is a very system-specific thing, but yes, the number of aux channels, busses, and audio channels (that are enabled and routed) absolutely has a big effect on DP. it's a bummer we can't just go subgroup and aux channel crazy yet with tons of parallel compression and separate returns for each instrument from ve pro (maybe some can with monster machines), but i find i can get by just fine with a lot less returns from ve pro than i thought i could when i first started using a slave. i used to have returns for LASS vlns, violas, celli, basses, then adagio strings, wet brass, dry brass, wet winds, dry winds, etc. etc. now it's just one return for each orchestral section. other than adding MIR Pro on my slave (which let me get rid of all the wet and dry returns and also let me offload all of my reverb processing), the key is laying down your VI volume balances with disciplined use of CC7, CC11, CC1, keyswitches, and then whatever CCs you need for mic levels in multi-mic libraries (spitfire, adagio, cinesamples). every MIDI track i use ends up with automation written before the first beat of the cue so that it plays back that way every time. i spent a ton of time creating a touchOSC template for all of my keyswitches and CCs for each library i have since they're all so different and impossible to keep track of once you have a bunch. that makes automation a lot quicker when i'm writing and i can stay "in the moment" a lot easier (no manuals or "cheat sheets" required to quickly write your automation and move onto the actual music making). so yes, cut down on your channels as much as possible while still maintaining the routing flexibility you need in order to render off the stems you need quickly and with enough separation for whoever's mixing.

5) I use SSD drives on my Mac Minis for streaming sounds, and they are stellar. Does anyone use SSDs on their Mac Pros as their WORK drive (i.e. on which you save your DP sessions) ? Would this speed up DP at all? I was under the impression that SSDs perform best (and most stable) in their "read" functions as opposed to "write"…
i use have 2 SSDs in my master mac pro (6 in my PC slave) - one houses my quicktime movies (which i cut down in size and data rate considerably, and which i also strip the audio from in order to make it run smoothly), and one houses my DP files. it probably helps you more the more audio you record along with your VIs, but i'm sure it has to help at least a little bit even if you're just using VIs. i haven't yet switched to an SSD for my boot drive (currently using a WD caviar black with a 64MB cache), but i think that's my next step. i don't think we have to worry as much these days about only using SSDs for data we need to read from (but not write to much) - i know lots and lots of people who use them for their boot drives just fine. i believe some of those issues were a lot more pronounced with the first generation of SSDs, but any advice from those with more experience (especially with "trim control" - do you need it? how to enable it? etc.) would be welcome! i feel like running the DP app from an SSD would have to help things at least a little - that's what i'm hoping!

hope that helps. good luck and hit me with any other questions you have. i'll try to check back here more often : )
matt

Re: Optimizing DP for fast response

Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:50 pm
by Chris T
I never used the "enable" button before, but I see it's use now! Looking at Activity Monitor it DEFINITELY reduces Procesor %. I also experimented with the difference in processor hit when I:
a) Disabled (using blue button) vs,
b) Disabled AND Set the output of the VI Plugin to "none".

There was no apparent difference in processor hit when I changed the track's output to "none" vs JUST Disabling the track. This is great because it means I can avoid the inconvenience of having to change VEPro Plugin output assignments and "reconnecting" every time I want to use a VEP Instance. I just keep the VI Plugin track Disabled until I need to use, then when I re-enable, it 'reconnects' automatically.

My 'find' is further supported by the DP8 manual (p.134) which states "When a track is disabled it relinquishes all of its system resources". ( I should probably have read the manual in the first place!… :/ )

When you said…
studio_651 wrote:a word of warning though: i learned the hard way that doing this with a VE Pro Event Input plugin aux channel will undo your MIDI track assignments
What aux channels do you mean? I only use Aux channels as returns from VEP on my outboard machines. Is this what you're referring to? When I Disable the VE Pro Event Input plugins themselves, then re-enable, the MIDI assignments seem to be fine….

Re: Optimizing DP for fast response

Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:04 pm
by studio_651
i meant the channel that has the event input plug inserted on it (technically it's probably an instrument track) - if you disable that (blue dot method), it wipes out any MIDI tracks' channel assignments that are "pointed" at it.

Re: Optimizing DP for fast response

Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:51 pm
by Chris T
Weird. That's not happening for me. If I disable then re-enable my Event Input Plugin track ( created using Project / Add Instr. Track / Vienna Ens Pro Event Input (stereo) ), the MIDI gets re-enabled and assignments are not affected… Hmm I wonder why yours are getting lost and mine aren't...

Re: Optimizing DP for fast response

Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:23 pm
by studio_651
not sure - could be because i'm still in DP 7.24? i haven't tested it in a while, so it may have been fixed in an update to ve pro since the last time it happened to me. i'll test it again the next time i fire up my system.

Re: Optimizing DP for fast response

Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 2:52 pm
by Steve Steele
This is a good thread.

I don't enjoy using VEPro. I like what it does, but it's takes time away from making music, as I tend to build new templates a lot. Someday that will slow down, I know.

I also don't want two computers.

And, it's not that I'm a stupid Apple fanboy (well maybe a little, but not the stupid part), but I will never switch to a Windows PC as my main computer. EVER! I seriously hate Windows. I know Windows 7 is pretty good, and it's probably a faster OS for DAWs, but I just plain can't stand Windows. It's thoroughly unenjoyable to use. But as a slave I might do that if I have to.

So, I'm really hoping the new MacPros are a new generations of speed. I hope Intel gets a little more serious about their Xeon CPUs, but keeps prices reasonable (I miss the good ole' CPU wars and RISC days). And I hope that DP can take more advantage of the new generation of GPUs (if it isn't already).

I'd spend $2000 more to stay on OSX with DP and maybe VEPro. I'd like to see VEPro become a little more user friendly. DP can only be pushed so far before it needs a slave.

One thing I am worried about. Jonathan Ive has been put in charge of the Human Interface Group at Apple (OSX and iOS). Oh boy. iOS 7 is good, but it's got that "hello kitty" look, and parts of the interface are very poorly implemented. The voice mail part of the phone app for example. That is junk. If he ruins the look and feel of the Finder (that's like sacred Apple stuff right there), then I'll be pissed.

Re: Optimizing DP for fast response

Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:28 pm
by kestudi
I had a similar issue of processing spikes, even when the session was paused. Was running big template with VE-Pro, 2-computer setup, bunch of Kontakt instances locally as well.

For me, the source of the problem was this:

I keep my FX-auxes in a V-rack, and then route them to input-monitoring audio tracks in the session. That way, I can keep the FX loaded while switching chunks, and I also have the option of printing the wet-only FX stems to audio.

For some reason, this was causing the problem. I deleted the input-monitoring audio tracks from the session, routed my FX straight out to my stereo print track.

Now I'm starting to question if any input-monitoring audio tracks are adding to the instability of the system... It seems like it shouldn't - it's just passing audio onwards - but I don't know.

Re: Optimizing DP for fast response

Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 10:15 pm
by Chris T
I find that the more input monitoring tracks I have enabled and in play (i.e. audio inputs OR VE Pro Instance inputs or event input plugins), the more sluggish (end eventually inoperable) my system becomes.

I'm constantly just enabling/disabling tracks in order to not tax the computer to the brink.

I'm hoping that the new Mac Pro's processing capabilities will solve this issue. In my experience DP seems to handle CPU usage much worse than Logic or Cubase. This has always been an issue...