Ultralite Hybrid MK 3 as a FOH mixer?

[dewdman42]

hmm really? I've never heard of any MOTU overheating issues.

I think the ultralite will be perfectly reliable enough in standalone mode.

Me personally I still haven't made the leap to rely on a computer for a show, but I know many people have been doing so with good results. The odds of a failure are perhaps higher when using a PC, but still not too high these days. In any case, I do vote for keeping a PC out of the signal path if you can, but if you are dependent on it for virtual instruments anyway, then its a moot point.

The only difference between say a MOTU device and say, a digital mixer...is that the digital mixer has real faders on it while the motu device you have to go through knobs and menus to get to the settings. But otherwise its exactly the same kind of technology going on.

[joden]

Basically you have two points of failure - computer and motu. In your case both are showstoppers. For me computer is just a "remote surface" for cuemix (ok and for recording just because I can do it). However if the computer crashes the show still goes on. If MOTU crashes (or dies like one I had before, during the rehearsal) then the show is stopped. That is why i agree with dewdman42 - i got a small yamaha mg166cx mixer as a spare. I will still carry it as a backup until I am confident in MOTU. There seems to be an issue with 828mk3 with overheating in the rack which makes me nervous .

zbf

Sorry, but you still don't seem to "get" it...no laptop no show...I am using it for ALL instruments and audio. I use a controller (ie NO sound) keyboard, together with backing tracks all done within the software environment...it was why I said having a mixer is rather moot, as there will be no sound to process anyway!!!

[zaboomafoo]

I "get" it, I perfectly understand what you are trying to do. I am just trying to point to you what are cons for using that type of setup live. That is why I said in my post above:

Basically you have two points of failure - computer and motu. In your case both are showstoppers.

I am trying to explain a reason for bringing a spare mixer - which is to have a backup for MOTU. In my (and your) case MOTU is a replacement for the mixer. If it goes belly up - there will be no mixer in your signal chain between your computer, your instruments, microphones and your powered speakers. That is why a backup mixer would get handy - you could patch your computer and other sources into the mixer, and then into powered speakers, and show continues.

Of course you do not have a to cary a backup mixer if think MOTU will not die on you. However I saw one 828mk3 die on me recently and my confidence level went down significantly. I know mine might have been an isolated case but ...

zbf

[zaboomafoo]

hmm really? I've never heard of any MOTU overheating issues.

I am not sure how often that happened, but you can find some posts here on this forum about 828mk3 and overheating, freezing.

Mine was in the rack and it was quite hot when it stopped working. There was no sound although my computer would recognize it, menus were working, cuemix worked - just no sound. Later it started producing some kind of sine wave sound.

I got the replacement unit. Now I left one space below the motu empty in the rack. And I also keep a fan blowing on the back of the rack during use. So far seems to be ok.

The only difference between say a MOTU device and say, a digital mixer...is that the digital mixer has real faders on it while the motu device you have to go through knobs and menus to get to the settings. But otherwise its exactly the same kind of technology going on.

That is exactly what I think too. I now have a nice setup with 828mk3, ada8000 and small laptop tablet. It replaced my Yamaha 01v. I am just still not confident to go with that to a gig (at least not without a backup mixer). Although I use it for band rehearsals regularly with no issues. Plus I am recording at the same time.

zbf

[joden]

I "get" it, I perfectly understand what you are trying to do. I am just trying to point to you what are cons for using that type of setup live. That is why I said in my post above:

Basically you have two points of failure - computer and motu. In your case both are showstoppers.

I am trying to explain a reason for bringing a spare mixer - which is to have a backup for MOTU. In my (and your) case MOTU is a replacement for the mixer. If it goes belly up - there will be no mixer in your signal chain between your computer, your instruments, microphones and your powered speakers. That is why a backup mixer would get handy - you could patch your computer and other sources into the mixer, and then into powered speakers, and show continues.

Of course you do not have a to cary a backup mixer if think MOTU will not die on you. However I saw one 828mk3 die on me recently and my confidence level went down significantly. I know mine might have been an isolated case but ...

zbf

Ahh okay...cool yes I do see now what you are saying...it is a risk we have to take though once the software route is decided upon...luckily todays gear (and W7 -touch wood) are so reliable..

Although one thing, I have no "instruments" well hardware ones anyway! So again if the lappy goes, end of show!! It is not just mixing the lappy is doing, it is alos my guitar, piano, EP, organ and plays the drums and bass.....

I didn't know that about the MOTU gear though. I thought at its price level it would be pretty much immune from the failings of M-Audio et al

[dewdman42]

motu gear is very reliable, aside from perhaps a few defective units which may have gotten out there. I would not say a MOTU unit like the 828 is any more or less reliable then any of the digital mixers that are out there. If you are willing to use any digital mixer at all, then you take the same risk as you would by just using your 828 as the mixer to begin with.

Anyway its all getting kind of confusing on this thread. If you were using hardware keyboards, there might be a very small, like 0.01% chance or less that a digital mixer would fail somehow, in which case an analog mixer would be more reliable. But honestly, that is not worth worrying about.

The 828mk3 functions in the same way as a digital mixer, without any computer anywhere. It would not be any more or less reliable than any other digital mixer.

Now since you are using virtual instruments, there are more factors. yes your PC can go wrong, the firewire/usb connection can go wrong. That is a much more likely scenario then the 828's hardware digital mixer going wrong. Its still reliable enough for a lot of people, I know a few people using computers to host B4 and other stuff live and its working fine for them. PC audio has become pretty reliable. But still yes, its less reliable then a hardware digital mixer or the digital mixer that is built into your 828.

You need to think of the 828 like two seperate devices in one. part of it is a digital mixer that has no hardware faders on it. The other section of it is the section that interfaces with your computer. You can run it alone without your computer, as a digital mixer. Or you can use both. You are using both since you are using your computer for virtual instruments. So its a moot point about reliability. You are basing your system on virtual instruments so your 828 has to be there no matter what. The only question is whether to use an additional external mixer and there is no point the 828 has one built in. Adding an additional mixer will not add any more reliability then what you already have and it is not needed for the output levels. You are good to go!

[joden]

Thanks dewdman yeah it was getting confusing hey!!!

Oh by the way MOTU tech FINALLY got back to me.....

They said the main outs are fine to drive FOH powered speakers as long as they have an impedance of 100ohms or less. Which covers pretty much everything out there as most are 4 or 8ohm impedance. Assuming of course I am reading their (MOTU's) meaning of impedance correctly.

Any higher they said, and I would still probably have to use a mixer to get a hot enough line signal.

D

[RonaldDumsfeld]

That's good news then.

If the venue has a PA they almost certainly also have their own mixer. If you are taking your own PA it won't do any harm to chuck your mixer in the back of the van to be on the safe side.

If you really are planning going to the gig with nothing but a backpack there are still a couple of issues you will have needed to consider.

On my Ultralite output from a computer application (your backing track) can only be directly connected to an output pair. So you would need to preset a level in your app(s) and mix your vox and keys on top of that.

You might want a stage monitor to help sync your live and pre recorded sources rather than rely on PA reflections.

In this instance probably have enough spare I/O to loop back your USB into an input pair or mix buss but both the above would be easier with a hardware mixer.

[zaboomafoo]

On my Ultralite output from a computer application (your backing track) can only be directly connected to an output pair. So you would need to preset a level in your app(s) and mix your vox and keys on top of that.

There is a workaround for this:
- assign your computer's (or DAW's) master output to S/PDIF out on motu
- connect s/pdif out to s/pdif in on motu (using a cable)
- now you can control master out form the computer on the s/pdif in channel in cuemix, same as any other input channel.

Everything still stays in digital domain, so no loss in quality becaus e of multiple D/A A/D conversions.

[zaboomafoo]

Thanks dewdman
They said the main outs are fine to drive FOH powered speakers as long as they have an impedance of 100ohms or less. Which covers pretty much everything out there as most are 4 or 8ohm impedance. Assuming of course I am reading their (MOTU's) meaning of impedance correctly.

Are you sure they told you 100ohms max? I would expect them to say 100Kohm max. Typical line level impedance is 10K for unbalanced and 20K for balanced in.

Thanks dewdman
Which covers pretty much everything out there as most are 4 or 8ohm impedance. Assuming of course I am reading their (MOTU's) meaning of impedance correctly.

That is true for the passive speakers, not inputs on mixer or powered speaker.

It would help if you tell us which powered speakers you are planning to use (make/model). I hope you are not trying to connect motu directly into a passive speaker, that is not going to work.

zbf

[joden]

No zbf they are powered speakers!! I have been playing live gigs for about 25 years, so I think I have learned how to tell the difference

And yes it is what they said, and I quote:

Thank you for contacting MOTU.

Yes, this is possible, however it depends largely on the specifications of the speakers. If the PA has a higher impedance then 100 oHms you may indeed need an external mixer.

Cheers,
Lorne
MOTU Tech Support


Oh, just in case, and thanks to your query, I have just responded to Lorne asking him to clarify the impedance he is talking about, and to re-check the level....

[joden]

Oh and zbf, they are the M-Audio GSR 12's.

And thanks for the tip on s/pdif cool!

[joden]

On my Ultralite output from a computer application (your backing track) can only be directly connected to an output pair. So you would need to preset a level in your app(s) and mix your vox and keys on top of that.

In this instance probably have enough spare I/O to loop back your USB into an input pair or mix buss but both the above would be easier with a hardware mixer.

Thanks Ronald. Yeah all the backing tracks already have levels done, as well as the live keys work, but with the live I have the level control for tweaking if necessary on the controller keyboard.

[zaboomafoo]

Oh and zbf, they are the M-Audio GSR 12's.

And thanks for the tip on s/pdif cool!

I didn't know M-Audio was in the pro audio business. It seems that had those speakers only briefly in the line. They are no longer available?

I suggest you get 1/4 TRS to male XLR cable from motu into speakers (or adapter plus XLR cable).

zbf

[joden]

Already have them