Input monitoring and delay compensation

[FMiguelez]

Agreed.
Audio tracks with input monitoring enabed works perfectly here.

So good that I changed my template... I don't use aux tracks anymore. This way there are so many less tracks, and all I need to do to print my individual audio tracks is press record. Bam! Done!

No latency or anything bad at all with input monitoring. It rocks!


I wrote about this here:
http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 26&t=50004

Right--latency has never been an issue for me in this regard, and it is much simpler (for me) to not worry about all those aux tracks. If Shooshie would care to chime in, I would be interested to hear why he thinks using aux tracks is the smarter choice as he mentioned. I imagine it may be better for some workflows, but it would just add complexity in most of my projects.

I'd like to know his reasonsas well, but if efficiency and speed are the goals, I think input monitiring audio tracks would be the "smarter choice", if there's even such a thing.

I guess it boils down to personal preference. All I can say is that this technique works as well, if not better, than aux tracks.

[frankf]

I use auxes, but am interested in your approach using audio tracks. Do you put automation data in the audio track, and if you do, does it get printed when you record to the track? Same question for plugs. If they do get printed, then don't you have to turn off the automation when you play back the track to mix so you don't get "double" automation or efx? Thanks,
frank


Frank Ferrucci
DP 8
Mac Pro 3,1 OS 10.6.8, 24gb RAM
Metric Halo 2882, ULN-2

[Dan Worley]

And I *always* print to audio, at the very least by section/group, but individual tracks when I can - audio is the only enduring format in this ever-changing world.

Words of wisdom.

In a few years, many of your plug-ins and libraries will be changed, but 24bit WAV files will work as well as they do now.

or next week.

[FMiguelez]

I use auxes, but am interested in your approach using audio tracks. Do you put automation data in the audio track, and if you do, does it get printed when you record to the track? Same question for plugs. If they do get printed, then don't you have to turn off the automation when you play back the track to mix so you don't get "double" automation or efx?

THAT is precisely the beauty of this! Nothing, except for the sound, gets printed. Not even plug-ins.

That way nothing gets doubled. If after I print a track, I want to make a change (usually an articulation change) , then going back to MIDI is so easy and, more importantly, the MIDI mix will still sound almost the same. And going back to audio is so easy: print the corrected part and drag it to its audio track.

My approach is to always get the best possible mix at the MIDI stage. I monotor all this from the input monitor- enabled audio tracks while automating levels and all kinds of CCs via MIDI, and sculpting the music with the plugs in the return audio tracks. Once I'm 90% happy with the mix (and music, of course), I print the tracks. I retouch and perfect them more until I am 99% happy. If that ever happens, then I commit to stems.

The way I have set things up in my template allows me to print the tracks by literarily record-enabling them all and pressing 3 (takes only a few seconds).
When I commit to stems, same thing. The tracks are always there in a folder, so I open it, arm the tracks and print all the stems in one pass. This takes me as long as I can swipe through the recipient audio tracks (a 2 second gesture). I know of no faster, convenient and easy way to print tracks and stems, and at the same time the having agility to go back to the MIDI stage (or audio satge) back and forth.

Actually, I became a fan of skipping the aux tracks and replace them with audio tracks because of work flow issues I was having. Doing this with aux tracks was a BIG and HUGE disadvantage for me.
OTOH, I do use aux tracks to feed the stems, so it depends on one's workflow and idiosyncrasies.

You can read more details about this in that link I gave in my last post above, including my reasons why I found aux tracks to be a bad choice (for that scenario).

[PJ]

For me only reason to keep aux (playback) tracks along with input monitor tracks is the lack of delay compensation. If you do just audio, it doesn't matter, but I use DP with picture and DP doesn't compensate input monitoring delay to movie window. So without aux tracks I always have to manually adjust movie offset (which isn't very accurate).

[FMiguelez]

For me only reason to keep aux (playback) tracks along with input monitor tracks is the lack of delay compensation. If you do just audio, it doesn't matter, but I use DP with picture and DP doesn't compensate input monitoring delay to movie window. So without aux tracks I always have to manually adjust movie offset (which isn't very accurate).

I actually do more MIDI than audio. I score to picture for a living and have not experienced your latency issues. Not ever.

I didn't notice anything like the OP mentinons when i made the switch from aux to audio tracks.

Can you describe in detal the latency you mention? Do you use VE Pro?

[frankf]

I use auxes, but am interested in your approach using audio tracks. Do you put automation data in the audio track, and if you do, does it get printed when you record to the track? Same question for plugs. If they do get printed, then don't you have to turn off the automation when you play back the track to mix so you don't get "double" automation or efx?

THAT is precisely the beauty of this! Nothing, except for the sound, gets printed. Not even plug-ins.

That way nothing gets doubled. If after I print a track, I want to make a change (usually an articulation change) , then going back to MIDI is so easy and, more importantly, the MIDI mix will still sound almost the same. And going back to audio is so easy: print the corrected part and drag it to its audio track.

My approach is to always get the best possible mix at the MIDI stage. I monotor all this from the input monitor- enabled audio tracks while automating levels and all kinds of CCs via MIDI, and sculpting the music with the plugs in the return audio tracks. Once I'm 90% happy with the mix (and music, of course), I print the tracks. I retouch and perfect them more until I am 99% happy. If that ever happens, then I commit to stems.

The way I have set things up in my template allows me to print the tracks by literarily record-enabling them all and pressing 3 (takes only a few seconds).
When I commit to stems, same thing. The tracks are always there iUn a folder, so I open it, arm the tracks and print all the stems in one pass. This takes me as long as I can swipe through the recipient audio tracks (a 2 second gesture). I know of no faster, convenient and easy way to print tracks and stems, and at the same time the having agility to go back to the MIDI stage (or audio satge) back and forth.

Actually, I became a fan of skipping the aux tracks and replace them with audio tracks because of a work flow issues I was having. Doing this with aux tracks was a BIG and HUGE disadvantage for me.
OTOH, I do use aux tracks to feed the stems, so it depends on one's workflow and idiosyncrasies.

You can read more details about this in that link I gave in my last post above, including my reasons why I found aux tracks to be a bad choice (for that scenario).

So if I understand you correctly, you do not print your individual MIDI tracks with the effects plugs on the Audio track and they only come into play when you are mixing. I like to print the MIDI tracks with certain effects, so if I, for example, apply EQ to an oboe VI track, the EQ gets printed. Hence, auxes. Also, I bounce these tracks which is faster than real time. I like to print these tracks dry, however, which is easy because I also use auxes to return reverb sends from v-rack instances and simply do not include the returns in the BTD. Like you, I also use auxes for stems and mixes. So, I agree, it's really a workflow choice, and thanks for explaining yours. I'll give it a try on a test project, who knows
Frank


Frank Ferrucci
DP 8
Mac Pro 3,1 OS 10.6.8, 24gb RAM
Metric Halo 2882, ULN-2

[FMiguelez]

So if I understand you correctly, you do not print your individual MIDI tracks with the effects plugs on the Audio track and they only come into play when you are mixing.

Correct. Only the stems get printed with everything. I really do NOT want the individual audio tracks with printed plugs or any effects.

I like to print the MIDI tracks with certain effects, so if I, for example, apply EQ to an oboe VI track, the EQ gets printed. Hence, auxes.

And that is what makes a huge difference in workflow preference. That would definitely tie my hands, as I described in the linked post.

[PJ]

For me only reason to keep aux (playback) tracks along with input monitor tracks is the lack of delay compensation. If you do just audio, it doesn't matter, but I use DP with picture and DP doesn't compensate input monitoring delay to movie window. So without aux tracks I always have to manually adjust movie offset (which isn't very accurate).

I actually do more MIDI than audio. I score to picture for a living and have not experienced your latency issues. Not ever.

I didn't notice anything like the OP mentinons when i made the switch from aux to audio tracks.

Can you describe in detal the latency you mention? Do you use VE Pro?

Interesting. I would love to get rid of these extra aux tracks. So I'm really hope that I'm doing something wrong.


(1) Without aux:
I have my audio tracks. Output goes to aux tracks (master bus tracks for different kind of material). There I have plugins. Those aux tracks goes to master audio track(s) which is normal audio track with input monitor. There I have master plugins. Finally I rec to this track (or tracks if I'm using multi channels).

audio track > aux bus > master audio track with input monitor (or rec)

(2) With extra aux track:
I have my audio tracks > aux tracks (master bus tracks) > then I route these to "master" aux track where I have master plugins > then to master audio track (input monitor without plugins).

audio > aux bus > extra aux > audio track with input monitor (or rec)

That extra aux is for playback without delay.

With option 1 I get delay, with option 2 I don't. If I play those mixers (1+2) together, there is a delay. Without any plugins there's no delay.

But, I use almost only Waves plugins. And when I tried now with Motu's plugins I didn't here delay (option 1). Although those Waves plugins I use in master aux and master fader are quite heavy, so I'm not 100% sure. This could be the reason why others have delay, others not > Waves.

Edit: perhaps my Motu plugin test was done with too "small latency" plugins.

[FMiguelez]

I also use Waves plug-ins.

Please describe the latency you are having. Where and when does it happen? How much?

[PJ]

edit: more info below

[Shooshie]

Right--latency has never been an issue for me in this regard, and it is much simpler (for me) to not worry about all those aux tracks. If Shooshie would care to chime in, I would be interested to hear why he thinks using aux tracks is the smarter choice as he mentioned. I imagine it may be better for some workflows, but it would just add complexity in most of my projects.

I guess you've caught me not changing with the times. When I made Aux tracks my habit, it really seemed like the smarter thing to do. Without going back and retracing my steps, I can't tell you whether there is or was any real advantage to doing that, but it does seem like latency and CPU load were involved. Currently I'm working in all-audio projects, so it wouldn't be convenient to go experiment with MIDI right now. Let's just say that I'll try it with audio tracks again when I'm working in MIDI next, if I can remember to do it.

As I always emphasize: advice is cheap. Experience costs you, but is so much more valuable. Always go with your experience when you find that it works for you. There's no reason to do it the way I say to do it if you have a better way for you.

Best of luck with it, and I'll be following this thread.

Shooshie

[PJ]

to FMiguelez: Sorry I have some troubles to explain things in english. But by delay I meant there's latency. Audio playback is 1-2 frames behind. If I play aux (extra aux, not in the picture) track and input monitored track together, I hear two audio sources, about 1-2 frame behind depending on amount of plugins in use.
If I use picture kind of mixer, I have to offset my movie later. If I use aux master track or DP's master fader, picture plays in time.
If I add to my example mixer an aux track with the same input as in input monitor track, there will be delay between those two audio sources. If I remove plugins, those two will play in time.
To get 1-2 frame latency I need to put some Waves 'heavy' plugins, like linear multi band, z-noise etc. into mixer. More plugins, more latency.

EDIT: Removing all plugins from master audio (input monitor) track fixes latency problem. So (in this second picture) I only moved those master plugins from audio master track to aux playback track and then all audio plays without latency (compared to picture's tc). This is how I use playback aux track. If I add those same plugins back to master input monitor track and play all tracks without muting aux playback, sound is echoed, input monitor track is late. Even if I use all same plugins in aux track, timing is not correct.

[dix]

DP8 does not allow Direct-Hardware playthrough on my system. Can anyone else confirm this?

[FMiguelez]

Sorry I have some troubles to explain things in english. But by delay I meant there's latency. Audio playback is 1-2 frames behind. If I play aux (extra aux, not in the picture) track and input monitored track together, I hear two audio sources, about 1-2 frame behind depending on amount of plugins in use.
If I use picture kind of mixer, I have to offset my movie later. If I use aux master track or DP's master fader, picture plays in time.
If I add to my example mixer an aux track with the same input as in input monitor track, there will be delay between those two audio sources. If I remove plugins, those two will play in time.
To get 1-2 frame latency I need to put some Waves 'heavy' plugins, like linear multi band, z-noise etc. into mixer. More plugins, more latency.]

EDIT: Removing all plugins from master audio (input monitor) track fixes latency problem. So (in this second picture) I only moved those master plugins from audio master track to aux playback track and then all audio plays without latency (compared to picture's tc). This is how I use playback aux track. If I add those same plugins back to master input monitor track and play all tracks without muting aux playback, sound is echoed, input monitor track is late. Even if I use all same plugins in aux track, timing is not correct.

Hey, PJ.
I ALMOST understand you now, but I'm not clear on what you call "aux master track" and "master audio".

Are you saying that if you route the Input monitor audio tracks to an aux track then you don't get any latency, but you do if they are routed straight to the master fader? If so, that explains why I never heard any latency, since all my IM audio tracks go to stem aux tracks first.

Either way, that latency should not be happening at all!