MOTUnation.com

zed wrote:

Bennie Sims wrote:...I definitely here a difference in the sound when in 64 bit.

I am a skeptical of this claim, and wonder if you are hearing a difference simply because you expect 64-bit to sound better. I doubt that it actually sounds better... but I would be happy to be wrong.

Bennie Sims wrote:If there is ever a solid bridge solution it will be unstoppable. I am still a little perplexed to why MOTU didn't consider such a feature in this version though.....

I think that the fact that MOTU left it out, was a decision to NOT ever do it. This needed to be available with the release of the product, and not down the road. I suspect that trying to get a bridge to work reliably is part of the reason why the product was delayed by more than 6 months after the announcement early in the year, so I don't think it is worth getting our hopes up for a bridge in an updated version. I, too, am disappointed about this.

I work at a studio at times that runs Logic Pro 9 in 64 bit with UAD plugins working seamlessly through Logic's built in bridge. The JBridgeM is so small in size therefore very little code to incorporate as an improvement or extra in an update from MOTU. "Wishful thinking...." As far as the sound being better I am sure I am hearing or experiencing more headroom. I never previously fell for the "old new version sound better trick" in all the years I have been a Pro. But, maybe there's a first time for everything. But I think NOT!

Just to clarify - we'd all love to think that 64-bit translates to better
sound, but that is impossible. 64-bit is a mathematics process, not an audio format. There is no such thing as 64-bit audio.

David Polich wrote:Just to clarify - we'd all love to think that 64-bit translates to better
sound, but that is impossible. 64-bit is a mathematics process, not an audio format. There is no such thing as 64-bit audio.

I agree with this David regarding 32 vs 64 bit but isn't it possible DP8 might sound better than 7.24 because MOTU tweaked or changed something during the rewrite or changed the pan laws they're using?
I'm not actually say it does but who knows what they changed under the hood over the last year or 2.
For all we know since they did a major rewrite isn't it possible they quietly tinkered with DP's sound engine in ways they'll never talk about and we'll never truly be able to confirm?

David Polich wrote:Just to clarify - we'd all love to think that 64-bit translates to better
sound, but that is impossible. 64-bit is a mathematics process, not an audio format. There is no such thing as 64-bit audio.

You are correct about everything but the last statement. There is 64 bit floating point audio. I haven't seen it myself, but I've read about it in a number of places. I don't know if there is any hardware that actually uses it.

Nonetheless, 64 bit Waves plugins have nothing to do with 64 bit audio. It's like mixing apples and crocodiles.

What a crock!

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:What a crock!

Sorry guys, but I have to agree.

EDIT: Well, there it is. MLC was making a pun, and I fell for the serious part.

kgdrum wrote:For all we know since they did a major rewrite isn't it possible they quietly tinkered with DP's sound engine in ways they'll never talk about and we'll never truly be able to confirm?

I think MOTU makes sure to keep the sound quality and integrity exactly the same, and I highly doubt they would change the pan law. That would be a big mess. Now, if they offered selectable pan law, I'd be all for that, as long as it defaulted to 2.5 dB for old projects (which has been DP's pan law for forever).

Rethinking about it,I do think your correct about the pan law,that would certainly be a mess. Yes selectable settings for this would be cool.
You don't think if they rewrote DP they might have tweaked a bit given the opportunity to improve on DP under the hood?

Anything is possible, but I seriously doubt it. My memory is not good, but if I remember correctly about this, I think every version of DP has nulled out with all the versions before (when the tests are done properly). I don't know why they would change that now.

MOTU has been very careful about the signal and data integrity from the very beginning. The days of people believing the bullsh-t that DP didn't sound as good as other DAWs is over. The ones who spread and believed that bullsh-t were proven wrong time and time again.

Oh, I loved that you walked 8 blocks (or whatever it was) to get DP8 from the UPS man early. I enjoyed that story. That says a lot about you.

Just to add to the confusion!

Logic and Live both have 64 bit summing, and at least Live had it before the 64 bit beta of Live 8 came out soooo.....

One of my questions about DP8 that I'm curious about is if DP8 is still summing in 32 in the 64 bit version? My guess is it probably is, if I recall there's not much advantage at all to 64bit summing as apposed to 32? The guys at Ableton who develop Live basically said that they did it to get people to stop saying Live has summing issues, as a sort of snake oil. Though at some point some nerd is going to point out that all the "other" DAWs are 64 (Pro Tools is 48 though), so DP "sounds worse"!

kgdrum wrote:Rethinking about it,I do think your correct about the pan law,that would certainly be a mess. Yes selectable settings for this would be cool.
You don't think if they rewrote DP they might have tweaked a bit given the opportunity to improve on DP under the hood?

Well, DP8 is a complete re-write so it's kind of a given that they "tweaked" things, but not in any way that would change the sound, that's pretty much a no-no in any kind of production software. The only time I've ever heard this happening, and I was pretty shocked, was when NI announced that Kontakt 5 was updating its existing filters. All the Kontakt fanboys at the NI forums tried to argue that this was an objective improvement that will not negatively impact anybody, but I find that impossible to believe. You just don't mess with what's there, you add new things. That's why we still have the old "Reverb" and ParaEQ plugins, even though newer plugins have made those almost completely obsolete.

MOTU seems to be pretty solid on this concept, which is why we've got so much old stuff kicking around. But I think that's the mark of a mature manufacturer, not just changing things on a whim, but making absolutely sure that users' old work remains unchanged.

Prime Mover wrote:

kgdrum wrote:Rethinking about it,I do think your correct about the pan law,that would certainly be a mess. Yes selectable settings for this would be cool.
You don't think if they rewrote DP they might have tweaked a bit given the opportunity to improve on DP under the hood?

Well, DP8 is a complete re-write so it's kind of a given that they "tweaked" things, but not in any way that would change the sound, that's pretty much a no-no in any kind of production software. The only time I've ever heard this happening, and I was pretty shocked, was when NI announced that Kontakt 5 was updating its existing filters. All the Kontakt fanboys at the NI forums tried to argue that this was an objective improvement that will not negatively impact anybody, but I find that impossible to believe. You just don't mess with what's there, you add new things. That's why we still have the old "Reverb" and ParaEQ plugins, even though newer plugins have made those almost completely obsolete.

MOTU seems to be pretty solid on this concept, which is why we've got so much old stuff kicking around. But I think that's the mark of a mature manufacturer, not just changing things on a whim, but making absolutely sure that users' old work remains unchanged.

Very well said. Wish I were as, uh, whataya call it? Oh, yeah, articulate.

Prime Mover wrote:But I think that's the mark of a mature manufacturer, not just changing things on a whim, but making absolutely sure that users' old work remains unchanged.

I agree fully. But this is where the absence of a 32-bit bridge really baffles me. I now have hundreds of works and ideas in progress which cannot be opened in 64-bit DP without some loss of instrumentation or effects I had put on tracks. It makes every single project something that I now have to troubleshoot and spend time figuring out what has to be done before I can work with it in 64-bit mode.

At least if there was a built-in bridge (even if it was a little unstable) I could have assessed which 32-bit plugins have been used in a particular project and then decide right then and there whether to either delete them or not because I don't really need what they are offering, or (as in the case with SampleTank) it would allow me to either save my SampleTank settings for import into a new version, OR just to take note of which instruments were loaded into SampleTank on the different MIDI channels so that I could replicate the SampleTank instruments with similar instruments in Kontakt or some other 64-bit Sample Player.

The lack of any kind of a bridge is an absolute bummer. I'm trying not to get too upset about it, but I see hours of nuisance back-and-forth work in my future.

zed wrote:

Prime Mover wrote:But I think that's the mark of a mature manufacturer, not just changing things on a whim, but making absolutely sure that users' old work remains unchanged.

I agree fully. But this is where the absence of a 32-bit bridge really baffles me. I now have hundreds of works and ideas in progress which cannot be opened in 64-bit DP without some loss of instrumentation or effects I had put on tracks. It makes every single project something that I now have to troubleshoot and spend time figuring out what has to be done before I can work with it in 64-bit mode.

At least if there was a built-in bridge (even if it was a little unstable) I could have assessed which 32-bit plugins have been used in a particular project and then decide right then and there whether to either delete them or not because I don't really need what they are offering, or (as in the case with SampleTank) it would allow me to either save my SampleTank settings for import into a new version, OR just to take note of which instruments were loaded into SampleTank on the different MIDI channels so that I could replicate the SampleTank instruments with similar instruments in Kontakt or some other 64-bit Sample Player.

The lack of any kind of a bridge is an absolute bummer. I'm trying not to get too upset about it, but I see hours of nuisance back-and-forth work in my future.

But you can still just open those files in DP8 in 32-bit mode with one click. (Right click DP...get info...check open in 32-bit mode). All your older plugs will be there. Save your settings with those older plugs. Delete the plugs you don't need. All those things you mentioned. Then close...and reopen in 64-bit mode and be on your way. I don't see what the issue is really. I much prefer stable and optimized in 64-bit than less stable (or not stable) in 64-bit with a 32-bit bridge.

Dan Worley wrote:
Oh, I loved that you walked 8 blocks (or whatever it was) to get DP8 from the UPS man early. I enjoyed that story. That says a lot about you.

I need to get out more,lol
more exercise is also a good thing