DP7: Show V-Racks in Mixing Board

[NazRat]

So what would be the problem with a design that allowed you to create a single mixing board with all of the aux tracks and instrument tracks that you need and allowing multiple sequences to share it. That's essentially what I do in Ableton Live when I create multiple scenes that are used by the same mixer. Seems to me like V-Racks are an unncessary complication.

A Live project contains Sets which are esentially what one could term as a song.

A DP project contains Sequences which can also be thought of as songs.

So DP Sequence == Live Set.

In Live speak, a V-Rack would allow you to share VIs and AUXes between Live Sets - you wouldn't have to duplicate a VI in a new set/song. It is a mixing board that would be usable across project sets. (I think I got that right.)

Is that what you are describing in the above quote? The scenes thing throws me - I'm reading it as multiple mixes/layouts in the same set/song. DP has a multiple mix feature also. I'm a Live novice, so please clarify if I'm way off.

[FMiguelez]

A DP project contains Sequences which can also be thought of as songs...

Hmmmm. Not really...

In DP a Song is a collection of chunks that you manipulate in the Song Window. For instance, each chunk could be a form section for the song.

It would be more accurate to say:
"A DP project can contain multiple chunks which can also be thought of as a collection of sequences that may or may not form part of a longer formal structure".

Or something like that...

[Kubi]

(...) create a single mixing board with all of the aux tracks and instrument tracks that you need and allowing multiple sequences to share it. (...)

That is exactly what a V-rack does. Nothing "unnecessary complicated" about it.

[NazRat]

A DP project contains Sequences which can also be thought of as songs...

Hmmmm. Not really...

Just trying to find some correspondence between the terminology used in both DAWs, therefore the 'can be thought of as songs'. An actual Song in DP is way deeper than a sequence, but when I start to talk about songs, chunks, sequences, etc, most users of other DAWs will tend to trance.

[b.g.]

When I want to add an instrument, I generally add it to the unassigned instrument track in V-Rack-2 and add a MIDI track assigned to it in my sequence. (If/when I need instrument track automation, I'll move the instrument track to the sequence.)

When you need automation do you mean you create an instrument track in the sequence? Or is there a way to move a v-rack track to a sequence? Hoping.

You can drag a V-Rack from the Chunks window to the Tracks window to duplicate the V-Rack tracks in your sequence. Doing so won't re-route your MIDI assignments from the instrument in the V-Rack to the instrument in the sequence, but it can be a little bit quicker than manually saving a preset in the V-Rack instrument, create another instrument track in the sequence, and loading that preset. Also, this copies all of the contents of the V-Rack into your sequence; I don't know of a way to move a single track from a V-Rack into the sequence.

Luckily for me, I tend to work with VIs that can be automated via MIDI CCs, so I rarely need to move the actual instrument track from the V-Rack into my sequence.

I didn't know about dragging a V-Rack to the TO. Thanks!

[danika]

So what would be the problem with a design that allowed you to create a single mixing board with all of the aux tracks and instrument tracks that you need and allowing multiple sequences to share it. That's essentially what I do in Ableton Live when I create multiple scenes that are used by the same mixer. Seems to me like V-Racks are an unncessary complication.

A Live project contains Sets which are esentially what one could term as a song.

A DP project contains Sequences which can also be thought of as songs.

So DP Sequence == Live Set.

In Live speak, a V-Rack would allow you to share VIs and AUXes between Live Sets - you wouldn't have to duplicate a VI in a new set/song. It is a mixing board that would be usable across project sets. (I think I got that right.)

Is that what you are describing in the above quote? The scenes thing throws me - I'm reading it as multiple mixes/layouts in the same set/song. DP has a multiple mix feature also. I'm a Live novice, so please clarify if I'm way off.

Think of a Scene in Live Session View as a Chunk. The difference is that all Scenes automatically share the same Mixer. I don't have to mess with this V-Rack nonsense. I tried building up songs from chunks in DP for awhile and finally said forget it. This V-Rack limitation is one of the main reasons DP cannot compete with Live for real time performance or impromptu arranging.

OTOH I understand how V-Racks are useful if your sequences are different arrangements of a complete song. No other DAW that I'm aware of has that type of functionality.

[OldTimey]

yea generally speaking DP is not as full featured as Live in non-static live performance. Like if you want to be doing remixes on the fly, stick with Live. Nobody is arguing that.

But in my opinion, and well frankly in the eyes of probably 90% of the members of this board, DP's still the better DAW for studio work. And V-racks is quite useful in this environment.

[Kubi]

"non-static" is probably a key term here. Because chunk chaining is one of the reasons DP is indeed the first-call DAW for live performance in large pop concerts...

I think Live and DP are such different animals, comparing the two is almost like comparing DP and, say, Finale. They really cater to different ways of making music, IMO. DP, Logic, Cubase, ProTools are different solutions to essentially the same task. Live to me is a related but ultimately different beast...

[KEVORKIAN]

Think of a Scene in Live Session View as a Chunk. The difference is that all Scenes automatically share the same Mixer. I don't have to mess with this V-Rack nonsense. I tried building up songs from chunks in DP for awhile and finally said forget it. This V-Rack limitation is one of the main reasons DP cannot compete with Live for real time performance or impromptu arranging.

I'm a huge fan of Live... I've been using it since 2004. I think that your comparison of Chunks in DP with Scenes in Live is pretty misplaced.

Live has two ways to arrange your projects (called Sets). The Session view and the Arrangement view.

In terms Live's intended workflow, the Arrangement view is there as a sketch pad area to edit audio and MIDI, and to build your arrangement into regions that can then be dragged into the Session view as triggerable/loopable clips.

When you drag something out of one view you may erase it from there, and if you ever need to you may drag it back. This is all happening in the same Live Set.

Live then allows you to record your Session view loops/clips back into the Arrangement, essentially creating an on-the-fly arrangement of your material.

This is an amazing workflow for triggering loops and samples or for composing in a non-linear fashion.

None of this has much to do with the traditional paradigm of the recording studio workflow as we know it. Live is a pretty interesting and effective way of creating loop-based arrangements (basically) that can then be remixed on the fly and played back into the same Set.

DP is based on a more traditional recording studio paradigm, where you have extensive toolsets dedicated to capturing audio and MIDI, editing this material, and mixing this material.

DP is also very forward thinking in that it has always endeavored to give users a way to combine these DP projects into one another. At any time you may load one DP project into another as a Chunk and then treat all of these compiled Chunks as a single project.

The reason that V-racks came to be, is to give these Chunks a way of interactively sharing their mixer settings without having to copy mixer settings between them. This is a beautiful idea as it allows you to make incremental changes to the V-Rack settings and see them applied to all loaded Chunks when they are called upon. Just as if you were playing different songs back though a mixing board from a tape machine. This is an elegant and uncomplicated idea.

If you are working on a group of songs that will all share instrumentation and mixes then V-racks become invaluable way to work.

Live Sessions are not like Chunks in that Live Sessions are only a loosely grouped series of clips that can be played back together... or not. They are not specifically attached to any mixer channels (unless you place them there) and they only contain the info that you record into each clip (no global settings like a conductor track or specific automations). Using Live's Session view clips is like being DJ mixing and combining records. You might take the bass line from one album and see how it feels under the vocal break of another.

Chunks in DP are a pretty firmly grouped arrangement of tracks that contain ALL of the tools available in a DP project (MIDI cc/patch changes, track layouts, individual mixer views, etc).Triggering Chunks is more like listening to a playlist of songs in iTunes.

OTOH I understand how V-Racks are useful if your sequences are different arrangements of a complete song. No other DAW that I'm aware of has that type of functionality.

I can see you are still trying to view DP through Ableton Live lenses and this impossible. V-racks are not only for different arrangements of the same song (a Live paradigm) they are applicable to entirely different songs that share instrumentation.

IMO... DP and Live are complimentary tools. They are not in competition with one another. If I was DJ'ing a club, triggering samples in a band, or trying to create an original loop oriented track while preserving an element of randomness, I would use Live.

If I was triggering backing tracks and lighting cues for a major live touring act, composing a score that requires intelligent tempo changes, or need to record a band or an orchestra, for an album project, I would use DP.

[James Steele]

First of all, V-Racks were created as a solution to using the same instrument over and over in multiple Chunks in the same file. That is, if you have a Chunks window with more than one item in it, and if those two or more chunks are using the same VI's, then you're wasting CPU overhead if you put a separate (but identical) instrument in each chunk.
......
So... V-Racks to the rescue. With V-Racks, you set up a rack of instruments which appears among the chunks in the chunks window. All chunks can use its instruments. Double click it, and it opens in the Mixing Board, but prior to DP7 it would not open side-by-side with the sequence mixer. V-Racks has no other virtual space, only its appearance in the mixing board. It's just a place to set up the instruments and their routing. You can also run automation to them through continuous controllers, and there's even more: V-Racks can house Aux tracks that have your audio basics installed, which can then be used by every chunk.

So what would be the problem with a design that allowed you to create a single mixing board with all of the aux tracks and instrument tracks that you need and allowing multiple sequences to share it. That's essentially what I do in Ableton Live when I create multiple scenes that are used by the same mixer. Seems to me like V-Racks are an unncessary complication.

Geez. I don't know? Maybe because DP's been around a decade or more before Ableton Live perhaps? Maybe it was written to take advantage of it from the ground up? But in reality, they're not much of a complication and now that they're all visible in the mixing board, it's pretty much like you stated. It behaves the same way. So what's your point now? Go use Live if you don't want to use a V-Rack.

Your question is answered, the functionality is there in DP if you wish to use it-- just implemented in a different way. If we're going to just go over this more, we're playing the comparative DAWs game, which is kind of silly. If you aren't happy about V-Racks, post in the "Gripes" section.

[Michael Canavan]

Just wanted to add to this, I'm debating on which upgrade to get Live 8 or DP7, and DP is winning out specifically for live performance. I've been using Live mainly since about 05, but one thing that's a total PITA IMO in Live is that sequences must be fully mixed down in order to use scenes to fire clips etc. Say you have a set like I'm doing, a possible 8 mono outs to a the front of the house. I have a live drummer with a real kit and although my mix might sound good in the studio, at the club some things might need adjusting by the house.

In DP if you set up a performance as a Chunk, drop them into a Song, and add a V-Rack, you're set. individual audio files can then be adjusted for volume in each Chunk with a Mackie Control etc. and the sequences can be opened up individually for adjusting automation wise.

In Live you have two equally bad choices for adjusting overall volume in a song, mess around via mouse with the volume in a clip, or try to get Live to adjust the volume for a single song in your Arrangement View monster Live Set . In that Set individual songs you load in must be automated for any FX that are only on a particular song, or you must render all tracks to audio, even if you're not wanting to because the studio you plan on mastering the tracks at has Altiverb and the Big $$$ Lexicon and TC reverbs available etc. It's either that or multiple aux's and a single Arrangement View that has hundreds of clips and 40+ tracks. It'll be real fun finding the right clip in a song when for some reason the sound is mega loud in the room you're playing.

Basically Live is really great for improvisation and playing clips of full mastered songs, but when it comes to sending a mixing desk 8 tracks of bass, percussion, pads, and you're playing live software instruments over that set up, it's mediocre at best. <-- This has really caught me off guard about Live, just like the fact that Live's own FX and Instruments cannot be set up to accept program change messages, there's no effective way to change software instruments in a Live set with a switch, the only set up they have is in Racks, and that set up requires all three or four soft synths in a set be active, think of that in terms of 15 plus instruments in a Live Set. The way Live treats this is silly as well, you can change software instruments via a knob, so 0 degreees is one synth, 25 is another etc. it's pretty dumb really.
Now Kore is the only solution I know of to that problem that has performance presets that free up resources on muted instrument tracks, but why Ableton hasn't done this I don't know?

Plus it has no SysEx functionality, so the sound file of your hardware synth is not saved with the project etc.

I'm upgrading to DP7 as soon as I can hopefully next month, but yeah I often wish Ableton would buy MOTU, or Motu would buy Ableton, and combine the concepts, but hey.

[KEVORKIAN]

Michael, that is an interesting look at the challenges of scaling Live under certain performance constraints. I can see where those limitations can bite and that is where a solution Like DP really begins to shine.

IMO, Live is like a huge, fleshed out version of Polar in DP. Now that it has looper-style recording, this is even more true. Live can take you a long way but it was never about "meat and potatoes" tools. It's a creative tool and one that embraces and preserves an element of randomness in composition and performance. That's likely why they have things like all synths in a rack being armed and selecting them with a dial, etc... so you can randomly turn that dial and get what ever comes out down in a clip that you can then loop, and in a way, control.

It's very cool. It's not DP. DP is all about the details and the meat and the potatoes, as you explained so well.

[Shooshie]

Since I have not been working on a live show in the past 2 years, it's sure great to have you guys to explain some of this stuff so well. I can't afford to buy every piece of software and gear that comes out the industry pipeline, and while Live has been around for a while now, it never seemed like something that I or my clients needed at the time. Now that I know more about what it does, I'd be more inclined to try it sometime. Again, thanks for the great descriptions.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

Think of a Scene in Live Session View as a Chunk. The difference is that all Scenes automatically share the same Mixer. I don't have to mess with this V-Rack nonsense. I tried building up songs from chunks in DP for awhile and finally said forget it. This V-Rack limitation is one of the main reasons DP cannot compete with Live for real time performance or impromptu arranging.

OTOH I understand how V-Racks are useful if your sequences are different arrangements of a complete song. No other DAW that I'm aware of has that type of functionality.

Building songs from chunks in DP is an acquired taste. Most people actually prefer not to do it that way, but the feature is without peer for certain types of work.

It amazes me that you consider the V-Rack "nonsense." It's the most sensible application of VI's and Aux tracks that I ever saw. You're speaking from a very limited knowledge of the subject. I mean, listening to you say these things is like hearing someone say "what's the deal with these seats in automobiles? Why does anyone want to drive a car while sitting in a seat? I don't want to fool with all this seat nonsense!"

I do not wish to persuade you from working in any manner which you prefer, only to ask you to withhold your judgment about V-Racks until such time that you actually learn how to use DP fully, so that you're not tripping over yourself in the process. You've obviously got some mental blocks somewhere, and you're not getting the most from DP that you could if you really learned it. And perhaps you'd learn it and still prefer to use Live in certain situations, but I don't think you'd find anything about working in DP to be nonsense.

The bottom line is simply: don't blame DP for your own shortcomings.

Shooshie

[Michael Canavan]

Think of a Scene in Live Session View as a Chunk. The difference is that all Scenes automatically share the same Mixer. I don't have to mess with this V-Rack nonsense. I tried building up songs from chunks in DP for awhile and finally said forget it. This V-Rack limitation is one of the main reasons DP cannot compete with Live for real time performance or impromptu arranging.

OK You're not getting a simple fact here, you never have to use V-Racks. V-Racks were added only recently, and actually serve the purpose of having either a live performance rack, or of building up multiple versions of a song, it's not an either/or situation. You can have instruments in a Chunk and not in a V-Rack and Instruments in a V-Rack not in a Chunk. You essentially never have to use V-Racks, but especially if your AUs can respond to program changes, it's super handy.