Notice to the DP bashers

[bayswater]

It's not wise to analyse James' policies. Whatever he does, it works, and I hope he just keeps doing whatever he's doing. It's so easy for a forum like this to turn into a cesspit. Without a lot of contact with other DP users, a forum like this is essential to me.

[Armageddon]

There are two ways it can go, it can either become an "I hate DP and MOTU sucks" forum, which helps no one, except as a mouthpiece to bash a product nobody forced you to buy in the first place, or it can become a "DP is wonderful, MOTU is wonderful and anyone who disagrees can suck it" forum ... which just about as helpful and just as realistic. Despite his grousing on the subject, I think James has been pretty fair overall, at least in the time I've been on this forum, and given equal weight to both the pros and the cons of the company and its products (not to mention, the other aspects of mixing, recording and composing that pop up) ... and for the most part, the forum members follow that example, too.

James, ever consider doing a "one-strike" policy, where, if somebody shows up here and vomits rage all over the place, you PM them with a warning, advise them to re-read the Stickies and tell them what to expect the next time they do it, and if it happens a second time, they simply get banned? I imagine one good warning shot across the bow would chill most people out.

[bradswan]

+1 to what armageddon said, although that may make more work for James in the long run.

[Shooshie]

4. If you have a project-stopping problem, accept the fact (before posting) that it's not the fault of forum members that it happened. Deadlines are serious things, but consider that it might take days to replace a hard drive or to reinstall software--- and further-- it could take a lot of critical time for the right answer to appear on a forum. Sometimes answers surface almost immediately around here, BUT be prepared to be out of business for a while and don't lash out at people you don't know who'd otherwise be willing to march into "blazes" to help you.

I agree with everything Frodo said, but this one deserves extra props. If you're working professionally, it's important for your clients to realize that THEY, TOO, must plan for contingencies. Technology and deadlines are like porcupines and balloon shops, or bulls and china stores. It's hard to way which one is the porcupine and which one is the balloons... either one can deflate the other one. Oh, and get this: you ain't the first high-powered music executive to walk into this forum with a deadline rapidly slipping through your hands. Remarkable, isn't it? I must admit to embarrassment for some of my behavior on the phones to MOTU back in the early days (1980's) when I first found myself in that situation, but you know what? I think clients are more impressed with a professional who can calmly explain to them why their deadline is toast, and that there's not a human being or deity on the planet who can change that, no matter how many trillions of dollars are being lost every second. Breathing fire and casting about is merely a way of trying to transfer blame, and in the end one always looks less professional for it.

I explain this stuff going into any project, and I try to convince the client to allow me time here and there to protect against excessive losses in the event of technology failures. This mainly consists of data protection through redundancies. I explain how downtime can be almost 100% avoided if you prepare in advance and spend the money to prevent it. Then I explain how much it costs. 100% protection against excessive downtime can only be guaranteed through hardware AND software redundancies, and can double or triple the startup costs of any project. Once that is settled, the client is much less likely to complain about a little downtime if they don't have to buy everything two or three times.

The same should be understood by anyone who comes in here with deadline approaching. Try to remember a couple of things. First: you'd be surprised just who might be helping you with your problem. There are some extremely professional people here, and I'm not just talking about their attitudes. This forum has a large percentage of people who make their livings with this stuff. The music business is pretty small, really, so all forums are likely to have their share of working pros, but some of the er... [cough] "more popular" platforms tend to have a greater share of posers and wannabes; it's only um... logical that their forums would, too.

And secondly: we sense your urgency, and if you will just avoid making it personal, most of us will look beyond the steam you have to let off. We've been there and understand. The advantage of numbers of people here make it likely your problem will be solved soon if it's possible.

And finally: Digital Performer works. It works with the latest OS. You can do professional projects of any caliber on it, and it will reward you with as fine a product as you are capable of making. I'm not saying this as a patriotic duty to MOTU Nation. After all, DP is always changing as well as OS X, so there will always be problems, though usually they're temporary and not deal-breakers. I'm saying this, because if you come here all ready to exit stage left and dash to that REALLY professional DAW and its forum -- you know the one I'm talking about; the one without any problems -- then you won't get much sympathy from those who might actually help you. After all, you're the one who didn't plan for the possibility that you might be sitting idle for a few days while parts or information arrive, with no redundancy. But most of all, you cannot escape responsibility. Why? Because DP works. If it's not working for you, you are the guy who didn't find the path.

If I sound harsh, at least feel some commiseration, for I'm often the guy who didn't find the path, and my ability to help others here comes from having thrown up my hands and let go of my project for however long it took to get back on the trail again. I've HAD to make DP work or lose my income, so I've spent a lot of time exploring the issues. You can't know the issues unless you dig deep and use this thing for all it's worth. Then you find the problems, and you learn the solutions. For the first 10 years or so I was my only resource, outside of MOTU itself. More recently I've had the advantage of this forum. It is great to be able to ask this many competent people and expect results within the hour.

Those results can be surprising. Sometimes you get "you too? That makes everyone," and you know that you've hit a brick wall. Or it can be embarrassing: "your data disappeared? Try the View Filter. You must have hit the 'clear' button." DOH! So, those who come here just to say "adios suckers, I'm going to greener pastures," pardon our snickers. It's like walking into a fine ethnic restaurant and yelling "this hot dog has too much mustard!"

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

There are two ways it can go, it can either become an "I hate DP and MOTU sucks" forum, which helps no one, except as a mouthpiece to bash a product nobody forced you to buy in the first place, or it can become a "DP is wonderful, MOTU is wonderful and anyone who disagrees can suck it" forum ... which just about as helpful and just as realistic.

There's the third way, which is find a balance between the two. That's what's happened here. Really, a lot of it depends on one's perspective. I've seen it called both extremes in the same thread. When people read the same words but arrive at completely opposite opinions of what they mean, it says that context and personal perspective have more to do with it than anything. I see all kinds of views here, and I think we're pretty diverse.

There's no need for change to the forum. James manages it quite well, IMO. And don't think it's not work. It takes time to edit out posts or move threads, and it's one of those things you'd rather put off and not do at all. It takes a lot for someone to motivate you to go to the trouble of tracking them down and responding to them, deleting their offensive posts, and so on. If you gave everyone a warning first, you'd do nothing else but this forum. Rather than sentencing one's self to a lifetime of drudgery, I think it works better for people to be expected to bring a sense of decorum and community to the forum, and just boot their posts when they cross waaayyy over the line.

Some clown opened a DP forum while Unicornation was down for a long, long time. That person's family and friends spent most of their time harassing their members for the tiniest offenses. Once I realized that, I walked out for good and never went back. It was a joke. The last thing I want is an "active moderator" who goes around criticizing you about everything you say. It works both ways; we need to respect James's privacy, not to mention his generosity in providing the place. Let him do things his way.

Shooshie

[SixStringGeek]

The last thing I want is an "active moderator" who goes around criticizing you about everything you say. It works both ways; we need to respect James's privacy, not to mention his generosity in providing the place. Let him do things his way.

Yay James! Are you sure we can't send you money?

[cloudsplitter]

I'm willing to join in a group hug if it helps...!!

[Armageddon]

There's the third way, which is find a balance between the two. That's what's happened here. Really, a lot of it depends on one's perspective. I've seen it called both extremes in the same thread. When people read the same words but arrive at completely opposite opinions of what they mean, it says that context and personal perspective have more to do with it than anything. I see all kinds of views here, and I think we're pretty diverse.

Well, that was my point -- for the most part, we all have problems, but none of us are threatening to go blow up MOTU's offices because EZ-Drummer's MIDI features won't work with DP 6.02. We discuss the problems, and in a lot of cases, even offer viable solutions. It could easily tip either way, though, like I said above, and it's tough work to keep it in the middle like this. But don't misunderstand me; I'm all for anyone who gets on this forum with the sole intent to bash MOTU and/or its products to be banned at James' discretion. It's his forum, it was formed with the intent to celebrate, discuss and share thinking on MOTU and that's why we all joined. And by all means, it should stay that way.

There's no need for change to the forum. James manages it quite well, IMO. And don't think it's not work. It takes time to edit out posts or move threads, and it's one of those things you'd rather put off and not do at all. It takes a lot for someone to motivate you to go to the trouble of tracking them down and responding to them, deleting their offensive posts, and so on. If you gave everyone a warning first, you'd do nothing else but this forum. Rather than sentencing one's self to a lifetime of drudgery, I think it works better for people to be expected to bring a sense of decorum and community to the forum, and just boot their posts when they cross waaayyy over the line.

Well, it was an idea. In a perfect world, we'd all be able to type and speak without having to jam a foot in our mouths before doing so ... but have you met the Internet?

[Shooshie]

Well, it was an idea. In a perfect world, we'd all be able to type and speak without having to jam a foot in our mouths before doing so ... but have you met the Internet?

Not to worry. I eat foot every time I start talking about stuff like this. It would be better if I kept quiet. Reading back over what I wrote (much later) it sounds like I'm attacking you or something, when in fact I was just musing on what we've got here, and letting my fingers type wayyyy too long before stopping. I do best when I stick to what's working or not working in DP.

Shoosh

[Armageddon]

Not to worry. I eat foot every time I start talking about stuff like this. It would be better if I kept quiet. Reading back over what I wrote (much later) it sounds like I'm attacking you or something, when in fact I was just musing on what we've got here, and letting my fingers type wayyyy too long before stopping. I do best when I stick to what's working or not working in DP.

Shoosh

And I was worried I offended with my own foot in mouth problem ...! Anyway, I think the bottom line is, we're all pretty much in agreement on this issue. It would be nice to reel in the hotheads before threads have to be deleted and hackles are raised, but you're probably right; it would be a full-time job. And issuing warnings would also probably create the feeling that open discussion doesn't fly here, which isn't true at all.

[BobK]

It might help to have stickies at the top of this forum titled 'Read this before posting', with general guidelines and/or etiquette, and maybe another one called 'General troubleshooting', as distinct from the Tips sheet (I borrowed this directly from the Digi forums.) Of course, bashers would probably ignore this stuff, but it couldn't hurt.

I like how the Metric Halo email list adds a footer to posts that includes 'read 3 times before sending'. Good advice.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Not to worry. I eat foot every time I start talking about stuff like this....

Funny, I was just talking to a friend about how we would eat pickled pigs feet as a kid. LOL! Now it's our own feet. Sounds so "Dante," doesn't it.

[charlesparente]

Yay James! Are you sure we can't send you money?

Me too--I'd gladly donate money to support this awesome forum.
I asked James last week if I could make a PayPal donation but he said that he could not accept it, and that soon an Advertising sponsor would start running ads here.

May I suggest that James/Shooshie/Frodo and the other heavy hitters at least create an Amazon or Google wishlist and put a link to it in their signatures, so we could buy them something as a gift periodically to show our appreciation?
I'm totally serious!

Shooshie's DP tips thread alone is worth $20 a year to me since I'm quite new to DP.

best,
Charles

[philbrown]

Personally I ignore any posts with all caps, with several exclamation points or 'Arrrghhh' (and it's many variations) in the subject line as well as any sweeping generalities like 'DP is crap' etc. That eliminates about 80-90% of it. I don't like people shouting at me in person, so why would I tolerate it on the internet? I'm always amazed how many otherwise intelligent people will bite the hook when these posters are obviously trolling. We see it over and over again. What would send a better signal than all of us completely ignoring those posts with zero response? That would really send the message IMO. But it's like driving by an accident and not gawking - humans just can't seem to do that for whatever reason. People just seem to feel compelled to answer an obviously trolling post even though they know better. I haven't seen it yet but I'm still waiting for a troll post to go completely ignored. That would be genuinely funny and make my day.

EDIT: Here's my half-joking solution:
Don't delete the thread - just lock it with the original post only and don't allow any responses. That would really send a message. New posters especially would think they're being completely ignored. It's just twisted enough I like it!

[sourgrapes]

Yay James! Are you sure we can't send you money?

Me too--I'd gladly donate money to support this awesome forum.
I asked James last week if I could make a PayPal donation but he said that he could not accept it, and that soon an Advertising sponsor would start running ads here.

May I suggest that James/Shooshie/Frodo and the other heavy hitters at least create an Amazon or Google wishlist and put a link to it in their signatures, so we could buy them something as a gift periodically to show our appreciation?
I'm totally serious!

Shooshie's DP tips thread alone is worth $20 a year to me since I'm quite new to DP.

best,
Charles

+1000!