Snow Leopard Aug 28. Who are the brave ones?

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I think we need a new forum section: Snowflakes

[Shooshie]

I'm stoked about Snow Leopard. It's going to be a great upgrade for Macs. The speed, if we're to believe Apple's words, will be amazing. The ability for the OS to divide tasks among the processor cores will make everything run smoother and faster. The new Finder, if I'm reading correctly, will do away with most of the beachballs and crashes. I do worry about one little thing: Grand Central Dispatch. I know I just raved about it only two sentences back, but here's my concern: with the OS dividing tasks among cores and deciding what task to do when, what power will the Audio App or DAW have to control its timing? But, that's such an obvious concern that I'm quite sure they have some fix for that, to ensure that the DAW does indeed get to maintain its autonomy over Time. Or, a DAW could simply choose not to take advantage of GCD and go with its own multi-processing algorithm. With a little luck, they've got all that figured out, and DP will be able to take full advantage of all the speed boosts that Snow Leopard has to offer.

It's sad that we have to leave behind the PPC processors, but it was inevitable at some point, just as it was inevitable that the old 68000 Motorola chip line was eventually orphaned. In each case, adopters of the new chips never look back; the advantages are staggering. And with Snow Leopard, OSX will get to stretch its legs in the Intel chips, and see just how fast it can really run. I'm going to be one of the first in line for Snow Leopard.

Shooshie

[mhschmieder]

Yes, but Intel chips have only been in Macs for THREE YEARS.

I know that having an 8-9 year old computer is unusual, but even if you account for the supposed average upgrade cycle of five years, this seems highly punitive and designed primarily to sell hardware.

I'm pondering going to Windows for my next computer. It would be WAY cheaper, and I'd have all the connectivity I want (Rain makes great packages). I'm skeptical that Apple will allow the luxury in the future of holding onto an "old" computer.

I see no reason that Tiger on my PPC would stop running for some reason in the future. I would simply keep this computer as a stable working system and not worry about any further updates.

[newrigel]

I've seen it run on a developer buddies of mines machine and it's really, really quite brisk and snappy to say the least. But this is running the bundled apps with SL of course! I know that it's going to take a few months for everyone to catch up to the native code (or else use Rosetta which won't give any benefit at all) but that's the only way since nothing's out there that's native for SL... yet!
I'm not jumping until everything becomes native! Sure... mail will open pretty fast but that's not where I need the added speed!
This same stuff happened on every new OS update and it takes a while for everyone to catch up so why bother when I'm happy where I'm @!
And as a PPC user too, I have this G5 system set up and it does just what I want so why worry about the latest and greatest when all that comes with it is REGRETS!
But my new MP will definitely see big performance gains once everything comes around! That day will come but not for a while so I'm going to have to wait....

[mhschmieder]

Is Rosetta still supported in Snow Leopard? Are there still any apps that need it? Is it even possible to install such apps on a brand-new Snow Leopard machine (as opposed to an older machine upgraded to Snow Leopard)?

[Frodo]

Is Rosetta still supported in Snow Leopard? Are there still any apps that need it? Is it even possible to install such apps on a brand-new Snow Leopard machine (as opposed to an older machine upgraded to Snow Leopard)?

Those are all excellent questions!

Is Rosetta still supported in Snow Leopard?

Although Rosetta and QuickTime 7 are both included on the Mac OS X 10.6 installation DVD, both are designated as optional installs by default....

Are there still any apps that need it?

It would seem so, if Rosetta is included as an option. I would imagine that later versions of Snow Leopard and future felines might eliminate Rosetta.

Is it even possible to install such apps on a brand-new Snow Leopard machine (as opposed to an older machine upgraded to Snow Leopard)?

Also, apparently so. If Rosetta is included (even as an option), and if all of Snow Leopard's components are part of the extended OS package, then it seems that installation of such apps is possible. Consider that Snow Leopard can only be installed on a relatively "limited" number of machines, so I don't see how/why Apple would parse which Snow Leo machines could and which could not.

Much hinges on robust third-party support, I would imagine. Taking an existing version of an app might not do the trick without some sort of update from a third-party, but that it's possible? It looks like it--- although I'd still recommend great care with getting verbal confirmation from any third-party developer before taking a chance.

[zed]

I'm so hoping that they have fixed a few Finder issues... mainly that folders remember their views, just like they always did in every version of Mac OS prior to Leopard. Better Spotlight indexing would also be really nice, since I am tired of not being able to find what I'm looking for.

Just those things will make me happy.

[Frodo]

I'm so hoping that they have fixed a few Finder issues... mainly that folders remember their views, just like they always did in every version of Mac OS prior to Leopard. Better Spotlight indexing would also be really nice, since I am tired of not being able to find what I'm looking for.

Just those things will make me happy.

Apparently, you're *potentially* in luck!

The Finder has been completely rewritten using Cocoa to take advantage of the new technologies in Snow Leopard, including 64-bit support and Grand Central Dispatch. It’s more responsive from top to bottom, with snappier performance throughout the Finder....

...and it includes new features such as customizable Spotlight search options...

Yes, they used the term "snappier"...

[williemyers]

I'm doing a "double" jump.

I'm currently on (a very well-running, thank you) 10.5.7 with DP 5.13. I've created a partition that will be 10.6 with DP 6.0.2.

should be an "interesting" weekend!!

[noah330]

Well, maybe I'll try it on my MBP.

I run a last generation G5 in my studio - that machine runs without any issues so it looks as if I'm going to be stuck with that machine and DP6 for a while - glad all the bugs are worked out:)

I know when 10.5 came out it took a while before I had drivers that would work with my digital mixer and my LiquidMix. Add in that I use the UAD-1 and it just makes no sense to upgrade.

[Shooshie]

Yes, but Intel chips have only been in Macs for THREE YEARS.

By industry standards, that's an entire life-cycle [3 years] of the typical computer. Macs actually go a lot longer -- at least the old ones do -- as you have often pointed out, but most people buy a new one at least within 3-4 years. Three years into the PPC chips, it was pretty hard to find any software that supported the 68000 code. I'm pretty sure that the OS's of that time did not run on the 68000 computers any more by then. I think that was the break between System 7.x and OS-8. They even dropped the "system" and started calling it the "OS."

I know that having an 8-9 year old computer is unusual, but even if you account for the supposed average upgrade cycle of five years, this seems highly punitive and designed primarily to sell hardware.

I have a 9 year old computer -- a Pismo Powerbook, which is one of my most favorite laptop designs of all time. I run OS X 10.3.x on it. I just don't think it will handle Tiger or Leopard. That's fine with me. In fact, I've been thinking about reverting it back to OS9 and using DP 3 on it. That was a great computer with ample power for the DP versions of the time. It uses Firewire and USB, so my interfaces would work fine with it. It's just a matter of whether I want to go back to the particular headaches of OS9. (FreeMIDI, for one)

I don't think Snow Leopard is at all punitive. In fact, it's almost a gift. It's like getting a new computer for the price of a QuickTime upgrade. Remember, almost nobody tries to run the latest technology on the oldest computers. 9 years IS a very long time. A VERY VERY long time in computer terms. There's no way you could construe this as a ploy to force people to buy new computers, other than the big picture in which all companies are always moving everyone toward new upgrades. With new computers, new things are possible. Those new things are NOT possible on old computers. To make it all retro-active for all old computers would set progress back by decades.

Here's the deal: if you want to (or have to) stay with old computers, then accept their limitations and run only the software that was appropriate for their day. You can push the limits, but then you must accept the performance hit and instability.

I'm pondering going to Windows for my next computer. It would be WAY cheaper, and I'd have all the connectivity I want (Rain makes great packages). I'm skeptical that Apple will allow the luxury in the future of holding onto an "old" computer.

Try running Windows 7 on a 1999 PC. I really think you'd be totally frustrated if you switched platforms. Not only that, I think by the time you got everything converted to the PC platform, you'd have spent enough to at least justify a Macintosh MINI, on which you could run Snow Leopard, most likely. Of course, anyone who buys a Mac Mini must also accept that it's not at the forefront of their specs. It's not going to have the functional life of a Mac Pro, but then again, you can buy about 3 of them for what it costs for a Mac Pro, so you could upgrade every few years.

I see no reason that Tiger on my PPC would stop running for some reason in the future. I would simply keep this computer as a stable working system and not worry about any further updates.

Wouldn't we all! But the only way to do that is to get a stable, working system and " not worry about further updates." That can be done! It just means you don't get to try the latest software. Obsolescence can be a relief; it offers a certain freedom. But computers are ultimately mechanical devices. Pretty soon you have to upgrade your hard drive, because the old one just quits working. So, the question is whether you can even GET a hard drive that replaces it anymore.

For example, I have a Kurzweil 2600 with a place for an internal 8 GB SCSI hard drive. When this machine was designed, 8 GB seemed like an incredible amount of space. It would hold about 12 CDs worth of samples, and so forth. But even when I bought it (2002), it was nearly impossible to find an 8 GB SCSI hard drive. In fact, it was hard to find a new SCSI hard drive at all! Those that I could find were outrageously expensive, because the makers knew their market was chiefly K2600 users, and they had them over a barrel. I never bought one. The point, being that as obsolescence kicks in, keeping your computer in repairs will cost more and more for exotic "classic" parts.

So, you can go obsolete and enjoy a stable system with which you're familiar, or you can have the latest and greatest. You can't do the latest and greatest on obsolete computers. I'm quite sympathetic to your plight, as it's gotten harder for me to replace my hardware, too, but I do it because I have to. I need better samples, better plugins, and so forth. When I finally achieve what I want, if that ever happens, then I'll be most happy to buy a few old Mac Pro's like mine for parts, and live out my life happily without another upgrade. I'll have to stay away from this board when I do, as I can't resist upgrading when I read what's going on.

But Snow Leopard as merely a ploy to get more upgrades? That's the cynical view. I'm looking at this as the beginning of a new wave of possibilities of which we haven't dared to dream. This will be exciting for the next few years!

Shooshie

[mesaken]

Here's a decent review.

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/08/25 ... w_leopard/

Its down to $25 now as well.

[billf]

Is Rosetta still supported in Snow Leopard? Are there still any apps that need it? Is it even possible to install such apps on a brand-new Snow Leopard machine (as opposed to an older machine upgraded to Snow Leopard)?

Those are all excellent questions!

Is Rosetta still supported in Snow Leopard?

Although Rosetta and QuickTime 7 are both included on the Mac OS X 10.6 installation DVD, both are designated as optional installs by default....

Are there still any apps that need it?

While Rosetta might be included as an installation option on the developer versions, if it is included in the production release, will it make any difference to audio apps? It doesn't today, so I doubt it. Graphics apps, maybe. So my guess is *if* it is included, it's there to allow older versions of Photoshop and such to run. We'll see this Friday.

[bjornln]

Think the big thing with the snowy feline is gonna be that you are required to have 64-bit drivers.

Does anyone know if MotU MIDI & audio drivers are 64- or 32-bit ?

/B

Edit:
I searched the motu RSS downloads as well as tech notes, and none of them found any 64-bit texts..
so probably not.

[SixStringGeek]

I do worry about one little thing: Grand Central Dispatch. I know I just raved about it only two sentences back, but here's my concern: with the OS dividing tasks among cores and deciding what task to do when, what power will the Audio App or DAW have to control its timing?

GCD doesn't address hard realtime computing - which is what audio is all about. There are other techniques available though. OpenCL allows DSP computations to be thrown at the graphics processor - this will allow plugs to get better throughput since GPUs are really good at this kind of thing. GCD does address getting work out of the main UI thread - which means thing should seem a good bit snappier .

The beach ball is automatically displayed by the OS when the application goes some period of time without fetching a new user event (keyboard or mouse activity - these are fetched in an infinite loop). The new way to do things is to put the thing to be done in response to the user action into a GCD queue and resume handling events. This will require an update to apps to work this way. Its not a big change.

So I wonder when the new Snow Leopard version of DP will come out with 30% more snappy?