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Re: Should I make a "Logic"-al choice?
Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:23 am
by fai31188
How about just needing to control external MIDI gear in Logic??? I am not talking complex routing mind you???? Simple thing like triggering one keyboard from another? Try doing that on multiple tracks!!!
How about opening multiple MIDI tracks in the same window for editing purposes? How about a MIDI and an audio track in the same window for editing purposes?
aL
Re: Should I make a "Logic"-al choice?
Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:40 pm
by Shooshie
fai31188 wrote:How about just needing to control external MIDI gear in Logic??? I am not talking complex routing mind you???? Simple thing like triggering one keyboard from another? Try doing that on multiple tracks!!!
How about opening multiple MIDI tracks in the same window for editing purposes? How about a MIDI and an audio track in the same window for editing purposes?
aL
You're right on target. The problem with Logic, back when it was eMagic's before Apple bought them, was that its name was like an ironic euphemism: Logic was extremely illogical. It appealed to people who like to tinker around with their software. For those who just want to multi-track musical lines and edit them, then record and mix them, the best way is the simplest way that still offers the power to accomplish sensitive editing of large amounts of music. DP always was set up that way. Since Apple bought Logic, they've tried to make it more user-friendly -- and succeeded -- but there are still parts of it that are ridiculously stupid. The ONE thing which is a complete deal-breaker for me in Logic is that you can't just double-click on a MIDI track, select certain notes, and then draw a phrase for that selection. It can be done, but only by lining up windows so that you can see the notes, and then see their velocities in the Hyper-editor. You can link those windows together, if you want, but that's a lot of tinkering just to adjust a phrase of music.
The fact that velocities are edited horizontally, which forces you to look at each one as a separate entity, rather than looking at all the notes as a single phrase, is (in my personal and humble opinion)
stupid. How could Logic's programmers, who can manage such complex connections and relationships between so many diverse objects, so utterly fail to produce the most basic and simple MIDI editor? Were they just trying to be different?
Shoosh
Re: Should I make a "Logic"-al choice?
Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:38 pm
by davedempsey
Logic, for me, is a VI rack if I ever want to use a Logic instrument - IAC and Soundflower. The only other time I use it, and the reason I purchased it, is with clients who have started their project in Logic - I'll do the vocal and other dubs in Logic so they're comfortable, but I will not edit and mix in Logic. I find it dense and difficult to learn and, frankly, even if I had the time to devote to Logic, I'd rather use it working in DP. Maybe there's a element of old dog and new tricks - I'm sure Logic is a fine program to use if you know it better than I do. I'll probably buy Protools soon for the same reason I got Logic.
Re: Should I make a "Logic"-al choice?
Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:26 am
by orcasound
Thanks to all of you for posting your comments, advice, etc.
I've made the decision to continue my support MOTU and have ordered my upgrade of DP6.
Fro anyone who is curious, I read all of the posts, many other forums on the web as well, talked with several colleagues who use Logic themselves -
The decision as based on 2 things really at the end of the day.... 1) ive been using MOTU software since for over 20 years - and despite some headaches,
I've always felt right at home with DP. I am in the midst of 03 album projects - so while contemplating this change - I've been in the studio mixing and producing alot....
on DP(5.13). -and - Its very fits so well with my work flow - or should I say after so long - my work flow has integrated well with DP - I think I've learned to take
this for granted over the years - It really does most of what I need it to do. -
2) I happened to watch some of the youtube videos of folks using Logic - some were startup tutorial types and some were pretty experienced logic users just mixing. editing
projects - while there were some things that really looked cool - i liked the cntrl-drop down menu on the audio files that contained all the takes and the quick comp feature, and yes the colors....) but I watched several videos of a logic user showing and explaining - MIDI flow, assign a track, MIDI setup, MIDI recording... etc. - he was jumping around on drop menu after drop menu, everything looked well.... over complicated... Simple things like MIDI setup and flow, assigining a freakin' appregiator to a MIDI Track, looked well... very Un-LOGIC-al. I'm a sucker for anything that Apple does... and while at first glance - I am very enticed by the look of the GUI - the more I saw - it looks as if Apple "cany-apple-ized" a rather over complicated program and tried to make it look like - well, a garage band on steroids.
So it took me a bit -I was starting to wane. But I think I will give 6 a run... (i can always load 5.13 if things go bad..) and wait for MOTU to make good with a future release of DP 6 or DP7.
Thanks for all your input
kj
Re: Should I make a "Logic"-al choice?
Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:29 pm
by Michael Canavan
OK I'm a DAW slut. Admitted, and proud.
First off, DP has never been as crashy as Logic 7 was for me. This was two upgrades past Apple buying them. Trusting that Apple can somehow make every combination with as much dedication as a company that only does audio???
Logic is a great product, no doubt. Looping/cycle bar etc, in Logic is smoother than DP, I disagree about the Track Overview. DP arbitrarily cuts up MIDI not based at all on verse chorus verse break etc. but on the basis of bars... Logic has an 'object oriented' approach, and allows you to cut, color and glue individual 'chunks' of MIDI in a track. You can view all of it as a single stream as well in the Piano roll, don't know if that's true in Express though? Logics audio editing is clunky, you can't print FX to audio without bouncing to disk and creating a new track etc. Logic has mediocre time/pitch algorithms. Logic has an odd MIDI transform window, that's based on some sort of math/coder logic rather than what musician would do. It works, it's just pulling hair to use, to the point to where going through and individually changing MIDI is easier in most cases.
DP has an odder work flow. People here are used to it, but no other DAW I know of treats all MIDI on a track as a single file, this is both good and bad. There are plenty of ways around this. I personally work in Chunks until I arrange a song, allowing me to copy and paste verse chorus etc. at will. DP is Clunky in UI, it bogs and audio stutters when the song is running and you do things. not terribly, but it's noticeable compared to Live or Logic. This is my main complaint. The GUI is tiny, on a laptop you almost need reading glasses.
Here's the big one though. I love certain things in Logic, but had I the chance to do it all over again, I would stick with DP and and really know it like the back of my hand. There's nothing like the workflow of that, and I've slutted around enough to think that's true. As it stands I'm torn between three lovers, and Although I still get things done, there's no doubt that I've wasted months on learning all the basics again in a new DAW just to get a smoother loop/cycle bar operation....
Re: Should I make a "Logic"-al choice?
Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:36 pm
by timriley
Michael Canavan wrote:...there's no doubt that I've wasted months on learning all the basics again....
Doesn't sound like wasted time to me!
Re: Should I make a "Logic"-al choice?
Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:31 pm
by Michael Canavan
timriley wrote:Michael Canavan wrote:...there's no doubt that I've wasted months on learning all the basics again....
Doesn't sound like wasted time to me!
In the sense that between Logic, Live, and DP I could tell you exactly what I like and don't like, you're right. In the sense that I've struggled with getting basic smooth workflows going in any of them, that's what I'm saying... I would love to be at Shoosie's level in DP, and be just worried about the songs, not file management, and how to transfer.
Admittedly I'll probably still end up using Live and Logic for different things, but the supposed advantages sometimes make me wish I had never bothered sometimes.
Re: Should I make a "Logic"-al choice?
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:27 am
by Shooshie
Michael Canavan wrote:Here's the big one though. I love certain things in Logic, but had I the chance to do it all over again, I would stick with DP and and really know it like the back of my hand. There's nothing like the workflow of that, and I've slutted around enough to think that's true. As it stands I'm torn between three lovers, and Although I still get things done, there's no doubt that I've wasted months on learning all the basics again in a new DAW just to get a smoother loop/cycle bar operation....
Well, at least you can give us intelligent comparisons between the three, and that's rare. Usually people's biases get the best of them, and they forget that they're comparing something they know very well to something they don't know well at all. You've done a pretty good job of nailing down the differences. While I own and have used Logic, I finally realized that even if I learn it as well as DP, I won't use it a fraction as much as DP, so I finally set it aside as a curiosity I sometimes tinker with. I've read much of the manual and know my way around in it, but I could never get as natural with it as I am in DP, simply because the motivation isn't there. So I'm not the best to compare the two in an objective way. When I work in Logic, I actually feel resentment that it's forcing me to work in ways I find cumbersome and slow, even after learning them. So... there's my blind side, I guess.
As for the Tracks Overview, however, it is much more flexible than it seems. I don't like using regions, so I ignore them most of the time, but quite often they actually manage to select exactly what I want, so then I will use them. But there are easier ways to work in the TO Window. One needs to know its depths and shortcuts. First, there are three modes of editing that can be set in preferences (sorry, I can't think of the page offhand). Second, there are a number of keyboard modifiers that make it quicker and easier to use, and Third, in DP 6 the TO window became resizable, so that the fonts aren't so ridiculously small on a large monitor. I defend the TO Window because I use it so much, having grown up with it, so to speak, as it was quite an advance over the event list, and preceded the "piano roll" MIDI Edit window. I posted some of the "secrets" of the Tracks Overview window in the Tips Sheet, but your mileage may vary. Bottom line... whatever works for you, use it.
Shooshie
Re: Should I make a "Logic"-al choice?
Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:38 pm
by hausboy
orcasound wrote:Just had to buy a "new-er" mac - 8core/2.8 - redid the whole studio kind of thing.... and well...I've reading all over the web - and thought I could best get an honest answer from my fellow DP users. - I've been using "DP - since, well... it was 'P' - I've been through most all the issues with the boys from Mass...but so far just a long wish list of things i'd like to see ... nothing really thats ticked me off enough to cheat... I did have a brief affair with Opcode's Vision - but that was a long time ago - anyway - I must admit that lately I have been thinking about alot of things that Id like to see in DP and I had high hopes of switching to DP6 (currently happily using DP5.13) - but from the looks of this site and many others across the web - it appears as if DP maybe has lost their edge - seems like this new version is more than just a bit buggy. I am a fulltime studio owner/performer and I cant afford to be messing with DAW-issues when i've got to be putting food on the table for the 3 kids. - I, like Luke Skywalker, I will never switch to the dark side with Darth-Digi and his evil ProTools - nor am I am cubase-nuendo kind of guy... but I have to say that Logic Studio-8 is looking more and more interesting to me. Its a $499 purchase vs. my $195.00 upgrade to DP6... and obviously in the sake of my bank account and my client's budgets - I cant witch cold turkey - but is anyone else feeling this??
Its not the massive amounts of VI's and Plugs that come with it - I've got lots of those,, but stuff like.... VI and plug-in instances - and the CPU usage - and the fact that Apple, well... they usually have a hard time failing at a lot of things - and cant help but think that SnowLeopard and its multi-core maximization will more than likely benefit Logic the most. I keep hearing a lot of folks saying that Logic is the DAW of the future.... I believe ProTools will go down as Apple keeps Kicking up their machines - no one is gonna need to/want to pay that God-awful high dollar amount for their digi-only hardware - when the newest mac can give them more... and I am afraid that maybe MOTU - might loose step or trip and fall - and see Logic way ahead in the lead.. and well... just give up.
I can live with 5.13 - even though Logic and its GUI looks a little more snappy....but I know that some of what I want - will never be had in 5.13
I need someone to talk me out of it.... talk me into it.... tell me they have a stable DP6....
This is a huge deal for me as I have cult-ishly supported MOTU much like I have Apple. - and I've always felt proud to be among the engineers/composers/producers and artists that have long utilized MOTU... it justs seems MOTU is loosing' 'em as fast as it used to get 'em.
thanks
k
I made a comment on another post regarding adding VST 3 support in DP. It would be a dream to synch to another DAW such as Cubase & Logic for more sounds along with flexibility. I thought about going to DP but I wanted one cross platform application & its not but I'd use like I said before to gain more sounds & the flexible for instance for colaboration with other users who use different programs.
Re: Should I make a "Logic"-al choice?
Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:48 pm
by hausboy
FMiguelez wrote:.
OrcaSound... I really don't know what to tell you.
Your perception is sad, but I'm afraid there's some truth there... at least SOME.
I've ALWAYS supported MOTU's hardware and software. I LOVE DP to death. It's allowed me to put food on my table, grow my career, succeed, and more... it's just that every day I see more and more people complaing about DP 6, and more and more people getting pissed off about MOTU's dead-silence policy of not saying ANYTHING...
As much as I don't like Logic, it will always have an edge by the mere fact that it's owned by Apple. They can throw unlimited amounts of cash to its development, and make almost unfair competition. They could even give it away for free, and it wouldn't hurt them one bit, as long as they keep selling computers.
If you've already invested so much time and knowledge on DP, I'd probably stay longer, hoping MOTU will surprise us all with upcoming releases... I think they KNOW they must blow us away.
Also, have you visited Logic's forums? I have a few times, and I keep reading about problems and bugs too, so they are not immune to these things either. I read a Logic forum once where things were more heated (and looked worse) than here.
Do you REALLY need the "extra VI headroom" ? I'm not sure how real, or how much that really is. It would be pretty sad to go to Logic only to discover they have as many issues as we do... and it would be worse, because they have no excuse to have them.
I don't know. What I DO know, is that since my old DP is working overall great for me, I have no reason to change. I want DP to improve, and I want to keep supporting MOTU. Granted. I write this because I almost never have serious issues with DP... I'm not sure I'd be writing the same if I did have them, to the point of risking my career, as some people seem to be having.
I'd say stay... at least for a little while longer. DP 7 maybe?
I played with Logic at the Apple Store I'm not crazy about it. Its hard to put this into words but the program doesn't grab me. Every now & then I think aobut trying then something always changes my mind. As for "extra VI headroom," why not use a dedicated card from TC Electronnics for instance? I don't have the need for seventy plug ins running at once. Why not focus on less to achieve more? I work within limits of the program. Digital Performer or any DAW is like a horse push it too hard it'll crash. I'm no expert I learned a simple lesson from a Saturday morning cartoon. It's name was World of Quest. The character is something like Conan & HeMan without the excess magical abilities he told his charge Prince Nestor that just because you the strength to do something doesn't mean you should use it. Why save the industrial when needed instead doing industrial strength stuff all the time? It is something worth pondering.
Re: Should I make a "Logic"-al choice?
Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 5:08 pm
by Guitar Gaz
I loved Vision and still do. Thought I'd give Logic a go as I have never been 100% happy with DP. But I have to say I don't think I could ever get used to Logic - coming back to DP was kind of like home. It ain't Vision but its the next best thing.