Choice of new monitors

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Matcher
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Re: Choice of new monitors

Post by Matcher »

michkhol wrote:I would also pay a good deal of attention to the transient response and phase coherency. You can in practice compensate for the room and coloration but for those two you can't. "Fast" speakers will give you more information about the mix provided that the DAC and amplifiers are "fast" too. It may be not obvious, but in the majority of two-way speakers the crossover frequency lies in the most sensitive frequency range of the human hearing. Basically we listen to the crossover, not the speakers. The crossover introduces phase shift, the more the cheaper it is. Phase affects the spacial information, sometimes it will be hard to hear the 3D soundscape with certain speakers. When I compared Dynadio BM5A and Adam A7, several people who were with me in the room confirmed that A7 had a very fast but flat sound, BM5A was a bit "slower" but with an impressive 3D soundscape. Please note, this happened in my room, YMMV. My next project is to build a monitor system including a low-power tube amplifier and custom-made monitors with 8KHz crossover frequency. I mix mostly classical and world music, so I don't need them to be deafeningly loud.
Presentation of the 3D soundscape was one of Genelec's strong points at least in the particular setup I heard. Are you familiar with the Genelec 8240 or 8250? http://www.genelecusa.com/products/2-wa ... ors/8250a/

This thread has some interesting comments about them by "gainreduction" http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end ... a-apm.html
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Re: Choice of new monitors

Post by michkhol »

Matcher wrote: Presentation of the 3D soundscape was one of Genelec's strong points at least in the particular setup I heard. Are you familiar with the Genelec 8240 or 8250? http://www.genelecusa.com/products/2-wa ... ors/8250a/

This thread has some interesting comments about them by "gainreduction" http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end ... a-apm.html
I never heard them and I'm curious to give it a try. But just from the specs I see that the crossover frequency is just in the most sensitive range. Again you will be listening to the crossover. The phase shift could not only make the sound "flatter" but also bring the false 3D feeling. It is frequency dependent and makes it very difficult to compensate. I'm sure Genelec uses a top-notch crossover but nothing can compare with a single driver speaker in phase coherency and transient response.
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Re: Choice of new monitors

Post by mhschmieder »

Shooshie,

Thanks for the HD1 endorsement :-).

For those on a more limited budget, I'd suggest comparing the Dynaudio BM6a's to the ADAM A7's, for entirely different design approaches that nevertheless both aim towards transparency (most other mid-range brands/series are hyped one way or another, and thus not so good for acoustic music).

I keep hoping to do this shootout myself, but the SF Guitar Centre still hasn't got their A7's back in stock, and often they only have BM5a's and not BM6a's (though sonically they are probably very similar).

Of course, I keep hoping I'll win a pair of HD1's in the bi-annual raffle. :-)

I've been using KRK Rokit 6's for the past few years, augmented with a Rokit 10s Subwoofer that I attenuate by up to 24 dB with crossover at 80 Hz. The 10 isn't a very good subwoofer but is cheap and having the crossover at least helps improve the response on the 6's and remove some of the renowned low-end hype. The Rokit 6 is great bang-for-buck and fairly transparent as the low-end price range goes. I consider it to have been an excellent investment and placeholder that can only truly be bettered by going to the BM6a's, A7's, or something beyond the $2000/pair price range :-). Imaging is excellent.

I find an excellent way to test out speakers/monitors is to take a well-recorded acoustic piano solo recording along with some choral work and some symphonic recordings. Add to this some cello concerti and/or solo works, and you can really tell a lot about transparency and evenness as well as image. My favourite recorded acoustic piano of all time is Murray Perahia's Chopin Ballades (and other works) on Sony/CBS. Unbelievably well recorded/mastered. You'll notice every detail and flaw in anything in your signal path.

http://www.amazon.com/Chopin-4-Ballades ... B000002A6J
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Re: Choice of new monitors

Post by XYZ »

You asked:
Yes, I'll need to pick up a cheapo omni mic at least to carry out the tests. Maybe I can borrow it from a friend though. I was recommended some software a time ago, but any additions are welcome.

XYZ wrote:
Finally, even if JBLs clocks are fairly good, they are non-upgradable, and your Black Lion clock won't matter since you will be listening to the JBL clock.


But does that matter even if the monitor is slaved to my microclock via S/PDIF? I'm pretty much a novice so sorry if that's a silly question
Not a silly question, and the answer is yes it still matters, and just to make this more complicated, somewhat. In theory, there will be some benefit. In practice, you are now at the mercy of the clock recovery capability in the JBLs. A little on ADAT synch. ADAT optical, as you probably know, is just a serial stream of digital audio. So your 24-bit samples are serialized, clocked out to the speakers, where the speakers stand back the stream of ones and zeros back to a series of 26-bit samples, which are then converted to analog audio. So, with only a single light pipe, how do you get the ADAT to send both the serial stream of data AND the clock? How this is done is to send the single stream of ones and zeros at a multiple of the sender's clock. Now, the receiver just has to "recover" this clock by sending the data to bot the D/A converter, and to a phase-locked loop. Now if the data was a perfect 101010101010101010101010..., clock recovery would be easy, you would have nice leading edges and a square wave. But that would be pretty boring sounding music. So the clock recovery with ADAT has to "infer" where the specific locations are when real data is sent. For example, if it were 1100101001011110000001010, you can still send this data to the clock recovery circuit, but you can see, when there are a bunch of zeros in a row, the receive clock circuit is not getting any information, so there is an opportunity for this PLL to drift a bit. When that 1 hits after all the zeros, it gets yanked back to being in synch, but it is not anywhere near as clean and clear as a nice perfect zero jitter square wave. Not sure if that conveyed why ADAT synch is not quite as jitter free as sending the data separate from a real, well terminated word clock.

The bottom like with all this is, if you ever want to enjoy the smoothness, clarity, imaging, and depth of really good DACs with a pristine clock, you won't get there with the JBLs. You can go ahead and bjy 100 or 500 or $1k per channel DACs, but you will be listening to the $5 DACs of the JBLs.

Again, I think JBL is a terrific speaker company, but for me, I'd avoid ones that have this room correction, unless you are sure you will never be upgrading your DACs

Oh, and if you want a cheap, flat, omni measurement mic, try out the Behringer ECM-8000. It will work great for you, and can be had for 20 bucks used. This is really a fantastically underrated mic.

Consider the source with all this [i.e. me]! I spent nearly HALF my ADC DAC budget just on the clock. Maybe you get the DRC speakers, and sell them later.


Finally, a really good clock, to me, is not so much about "better" sound, it is like "more" sound. You hear things that you had never heard. You hear phasing problems you didn't know existed, you hear harmony parts that seemed mushy before. Metaphorically, It is like reading text on a projector screen that is slightly out of focus. You can read just fine, but when someone takes that focus knob and dials it in, the crispness and clarity improve. Not the best metaphor; thought I'd give it a try.
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Re: Choice of new monitors

Post by daniel.sneed »

+1 for the Behringer ECM8000.

I've have 3 of them and a Earthworks M30.
For basic measurement tasks, they compare to the M30.

I've used them many times for tracking and for live jobs.
I do use omni mics whenever possible.
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Re: Choice of new monitors

Post by Matcher »

So, here's a little update.

After listening to the monitors in different spaces and setups, it seemed very hard to judge them by the small differences that I heard. In some situation, a monitor could sound better or worse, but because of the room or because the other monitors worked better in comparison in that room.

It seemed too difficult to get my finalists for a home audition, so back to the internet I went.

After gathering some more info about the gennies, adams, dynaudios etc, I bumped into an excellent offer of m-audio ex66 monitors. They were half the price that you usually see them. After some research I placed an order. The monitors have been well received generally, and are said to be comparable to monitors in higher price segments. They also deliver a very convincing low end that's important to me.

In use, my firs impression was that they are hissy. This was something I was prepared to, after reading some reviews. However, at general monitoring levels the hiss isn't an issue. Only with quiet passages the noise comes through. I wouldn't recommend the monitors for anyone doing film or orchestral stuff. Pop, rock, electro etc is all good. After I got my levels right and started to listen on the music itself, I was pretty blown away. It simply was probably the best presentation of the music I had ever heard. The highs were clear and bright, but not like adam's, which are a bit too bright in my taste. The low-end sounded full and balanced. The overall sound was immersive and space re-creation was good. The blue man group's The complex, and Floyd's Pulse sounded live as ever.

Recently I have noticed that during quiet passages, for example some soft solo piano parts, a kind of flanger effect is induced in the white noise. The monitors are connected with XLR's, so the converters might have something to do with this. I'll probably try the AES connectors and see if there's a difference.

The conclusion is that if you do films or orchestral, ambient, or some other quiet music, avoid these like plague. But, if you do loud music, like pop, rock, metal, club etc, then these monitors just work. I've been able to get my mixes right quickly and effectively, and at the same time it's been a pleasure to listen to the monitors. They don't sound dull, cold, bright, or muddy, prounounced or cause fatigue. For the right music, these are absolute killer tools for the price.
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Re: Choice of new monitors

Post by mhschmieder »

FWIW, as I lost sight of this thread and posted my review elsewhere, my own shootout of ADAM S3A's vs. ADAM A7's vs. Dynaudio BM6's vs. Dynaudio BM5's vs. various KRK models, put the S3A's way above everything else and only the BM6's as contendors for the mid-priced range. There were some phasing issues with the A7's that may be correctable but in the end I found the BM6's to be the best for long listening sessions, as the ear adjusts to its sound and they are relaxing and not prone to any serious dips or hype. I'm not sure if their price to value ratio has held up with the volatile currency exchange rates though.
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Re: Choice of new monitors

Post by michkhol »

Did you measure room response with all monitors tested? While the tests do have comparative value, the frequency response of the whole system can differ greatly from the monitor itself (usually measured in anechoic chamber). I mean that phasing (and other issues) do not necessarily have to come from the monitors.
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Re: Choice of new monitors

Post by mhschmieder »

Right, that's a given, but we spent some time trying to debug the issue. I can't go much beyond what we did, as it's a store and a special room for that store. Unless I borrow some equipment from work and see if I can get past the front door with it. :-)

Nevertheless, there were other characteristics of the A7 that surprised me; it's no "poor man's S3A", that's for sure -- though it does seem a competitive loudspeaker in its price range (bear in mind the BM6's cost twice as much).

I wrote an in-depth review of ALL of the models listed above, but don't know where I posted it and am not inclined to search it down at the moment. Maybe when I'm more caught up from my five week absence.
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