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David Polich wrote:Bear in mind that good sounding horn parts are 25% the sounds themselves, and 75% the skill of the programmer and arranger...I've seen this time and time again in my years as a sound designer...

Not too OT I hope: Hi David (or anyone with proven knowledge in this area), I'm interested in becoming an expert sampled horns programmer. I have only tinkered with such things for the sake of finishing some prepro demos, etc., and don't want a synthy sound anymore.

Where does one go to get a better education on programming horns? I know about the Garritan site, but are there any other "generic" resources out there for guys who can't wait 20 years to learn from experience?

Thank you.

Shooshie has pretty much convinced me; including with his audio demos.

I've been hesitant to mention my main reluctance, and deleted it once just a few minutes after posting it a few weeks ago, but I'll just summarise by saying that JABB has taken a lot of flak over at Virtual Instruments forum, with the main accusation being one of sloppiness (and I'm putting it mildly, as I'm always conscious that a later poster might quote this entire post and thus negate any future editing).

Shooshie's postings make it clear that Garritan put a lot of attention to detail into this library, and that those comments were probably personal in nature and possibly involved deliberate lies. The Sample Modeling folks seem to have decided to let bygones be bygones, so I'm not sure why others haven't.

mhschmieder wrote:Shooshie has pretty much convinced me; including with his audio demos.

I've been hesitant to mention my main reluctance, and deleted it once just a few minutes after posting it a few weeks ago, but I'll just summarise by saying that JABB has taken a lot of flak over at Virtual Instruments forum, with the main accusation being one of sloppiness (and I'm putting it mildly, as I'm always conscious that a later poster might quote this entire post and thus negate any future editing).

Shooshie's postings make it clear that Garritan put a lot of attention to detail into this library, and that those comments were probably personal in nature and possibly involved deliberate lies. The Sample Modeling folks seem to have decided to let bygones be bygones, so I'm not sure why others haven't.

As in any VI there are many opportunities to be creative. To expect that one can emulate the expression of years of practice on a horn speaks for it's self. We can get an impression of it but again that takes time and patience. These are only tools for the creative mind. It will take listening and manipulation. There are no instant fixes.

Haha, there we go, quoted in full, even though the reply was unrelated... so it's a good thing I didn't post what was REALLY said over at the Virtual Instruments forum.

mhschmieder wrote:Haha, there we go, quoted in full, even though the reply was unrelated... so it's a good thing I didn't post what was REALLY said over at the Virtual Instruments forum.

That shows to your kindness.

mhschmieder wrote:...and the wasted $1000 on Vienna Special Edition.

Hello, MHSchmieder. That surprised me, especially coming from you. May I ask what happened that you feel this way about VSL now? Just curious, nothing else.

Sorry to drift a bit off topic.

Anyone? Hmmm. Guess I know what I'll be doing for the next 20yrs.

[bwah, bwuh, bwuh, bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah]

Check out AMG's Kick A-- Brass. They're in the $350 range. Once I turned on the reverb I was pretty impressed.

Forget what I said about Vienna Special Edition; it apparently now qualifies towards discounts on the Extended licenses of the boxed editions after all. There was apparently a delay in updating everyone's accounts to show the discounts on-line (there were no discounts at all until this summer, when the pricing structure of Vienna Instruments changed). So I'm guessing that my new discounted price for Saxophones Extended is a result of owning Vienna Special Edition Standard and Extended, and not due to owning several other boxed editions (some Standard-only, some Complete/Full Standard plus Extended).

I just finished a final tracking session on a reggae/ska jingle I did recently, which I decided to use as a testbed for a number of plug-ins due to its unique needs. Last night was moderately successful in finessing the final part, which is a tenor sax, but after installing the demo version of the L2 license for Vienna Instruments Saxophones tonight, and gaining access to way more articulations (especially performance repetitions, which was what I really needed for reggae phrasing so as to not have to resort to splitting up the track into many different articulations), I got the results I was looking for: chunky, a bit raw, but accurate timbre and surprisingly more realistic note-to-note transtions than with the Yamaha VL70m/Turbo.

I also found out from Garritan today that they do allow resale, but that it is generally managed directly through Native Instruments due to the Kontakt Player host. That clears up the confusion about some contradictory statements in various pieces of literature (manuals, forums, on-line statements, installation disc README, etc.).

But please do not take this as a global statement to cut/paste in replies, other topics, or other forums, as there were some qualifying clauses in the email that were minimal but reasonable, and I don't want to be responsible for causing Garritan a headache. If I sense that may happen, I'll delete this post.

bOing wrote:

David Polich wrote:Bear in mind that good sounding horn parts are 25% the sounds themselves, and 75% the skill of the programmer and arranger...I've seen this time and time again in my years as a sound designer...

Not too OT I hope: Hi David (or anyone with proven knowledge in this area), I'm interested in becoming an expert sampled horns programmer. I have only tinkered with such things for the sake of finishing some prepro demos, etc., and don't want a synthy sound anymore.

Where does one go to get a better education on programming horns? I know about the Garritan site, but are there any other "generic" resources out there for guys who can't wait 20 years to learn from experience?

Thank you.

I don't want to come off as an old guy saying "experience is the only way," but in fact, I'm an old guy, and that's sort of what I believe. Let me put it another way: your best experience is that of your ears. Listen carefully to lots of horns. I don't know what styles you like, but it's all out there. Weather Report, Earth Wind and Fire, Blood, Sweat and Tears, classical, Nashville Brass, Al Hirt, Wynton Marsalis, Branford Marsalis, and the list is truly endless. It's a matter of listening and learning how to translate that sound into MIDI controller shapes. Only your ears can do it. So you listen, work, listen to your work, edit, revise, listen more, listen to sources again, edit again... and that's endless, too.

Your best tools, if you are not a woodwind player, are a keyboard with breath control input, along with a breath controller. In addition, I'd use a unit with dual expression pedals and foot-switches for sending other MIDI commands. The most desirable one that I know of is the one I use: Roland FC300. Cheaper units are allegedly difficult to program and tend to slow progress.

Good luck. Nothing's rewarding like turning a phrase with a MIDI device that causes someone to ask you who's playing that horn.

Shooshie

Shooshie wrote:

bOing wrote: Where does one go to get a better education on programming horns?

I don't want to come off as an old guy saying "experience is the only way," but in fact, I'm an old guy, and that's sort of what I believe....[more]

I should have asked "Which way to Carnegie Hall?" Thanks Shoosh. I know what you're saying and I think that there's no replacement for listening and working on solid, reliable gear. That said, I am also looking for "tutorial" type info - which Garritan does seem to offer a lot of already. Along with other opinions. I think what Gary G. said about adding continuous controller changes at every note was a good rule, for instance. It may not be needed on every performance, but mentioning that technique puts it up there on the board as another option AS I'm learning to manipulate with those tools that you mentioned.

I guess it's the difference between sitting a kid on a drum stool and cranking up a Buddy Rich album and saying: "good luck" as opposed to sitting down for ten minutes to demonstrate press rolls, etc. I need a video of a guy editing. I absorb info like a sponge and it would shave 19 years off a 20 year plan.

That's what I think on the subject. Thank you again though, every morsel helps ie. pedals, controllers, etc.

RK.

bOing wrote:

Shooshie wrote:

bOing wrote: Where does one go to get a better education on programming horns?

I don't want to come off as an old guy saying "experience is the only way," but in fact, I'm an old guy, and that's sort of what I believe....[more]

I should have asked "Which way to Carnegie Hall?" Thanks Shoosh. I know what you're saying and I think that there's no replacement for listening and working on solid, reliable gear. That said, I am also looking for "tutorial" type info - which Garritan does seem to offer a lot of already. Along with other opinions. I think what Gary G. said about adding continuous controller changes at every note was a good rule, for instance. It may not be needed on every performance, but mentioning that technique puts it up there on the board as another option AS I'm learning to manipulate with those tools that you mentioned.

I guess it's the difference between sitting a kid on a drum stool and cranking up a Buddy Rich album and saying: "good luck" as opposed to sitting down for ten minutes to demonstrate press rolls, etc. I need a video of a guy editing. I absorb info like a sponge and it would shave 19 years off a 20 year plan.

That's what I think on the subject. Thank you again though, every morsel helps ie. pedals, controllers, etc.

RK.

Well, I was kind of assuming that you had already read my tutorial-like post in the Tips Sheet thread. Page 2. Here's ya a link. If that's more the kind of info you need, then I think you'll get a lot out of it. It may seem complicated, but that's just my inability to write it in simple words. You'll notice that there's another post near that one that's about selecting things. It's even more confusing than the other one, but there's a need: when working with controllers, we have to be able to select the controllers that correspond to a selection of notes. I came up with this ultra-easy method that is so fast that if you're watching me you won't even see me doing it. Suddenly these controllers will just become selected in the tracks I'm working on, and all I did was hold down some keys and click some arrow keys. But DESCRIBING HOW to do it turns out to be very complicated! So read it slowly and know that in the end the result is a fast way of working. I have not used that method in DP6 yet, so I can't say whether it needs to be modified yet. But it works in DP5.x with only a few customized commands.

Another thing about working with horn controllers: when you find a section where the vibrato just has that magical quality you've been looking for, don't be afraid to copy and paste anywhere you need that vibrato. Same for any other effect. It's occurred to me that one could create a set of clippings of effects, and open the clipping libraries to match the music at hand. That would be a long-term project, and I haven't even tried it, but it would be faster for someone who does not play a WX-5.

Does that help any more than what I said earlier? I'm a little thick-in-the-head, so sometimes you just have to get my attention.

Shooshie

Shooshie wrote:

bOing wrote:Where does one go to get a better education on programming horns?

...
Does that help any more than what I said earlier? I'm a little thick-in-the-head, so sometimes you just have to get my attention.

Yes, and thank you. I will be reading this today. But you gotta admit, it's high time for "Fly On The Wall" (TM ?) tutorials that show how commercial pros edit string projects start to finish. Or horn projects. Or drums tracks. Imagine the time saved in mastering them that way than from within our own imaginations...and the, um, DP Manual [making sign of cross].

EDIT: I actually read those about two years ago. Didn't know what half of it meant, but at least I looked at everything. Now I'll know what that's all about... Tx.

You could always hire my horn section... Just a suggestion...

I use real horns when the budget allows, but when that is not an option I turn to Kick Ass Brass first...
sometimes supplemented by Garritan JABB, the horns from the Kontakt 3 library, and even some EWQLSO.

As someone earlier in the thread indicated, it's all about knowing how to write for a horn section. Play stuff in one part at a time, don't just copy and paste. Don't quantize 100% if you can avoid it. If you use the different sampled articulations artfully (falls/rips, swells, staccato, etc...), you can do a really effective job of emulating the TOP/funk horn stuff. In the case of KAB, this might mean that I have two or three instances of KAB (8 channels each) completely loaded for a four-piece horn section. DP's track folders come in really handy for managing this when I have 4-6 MIDI tracks for each instrument in a horn section...

Brian