Crackling audio? Try CoreAudio Aggregate Devices.

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Shooshie
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Re: Crackling audio? Try CoreAudio Aggregate Devices.

Post by Shooshie »

Well, I was thinking something along those lines, myself, although at some time in the past I had myself briefly convinced that it was happening due to a double-routing of audio, in which we were getting two doses of the same source, which would somehow get slightly out of phase, then correct themselves or something.

I think I abandoned that theory a while back. (I haven't been studying this scientifically or anything... ;) ) The buffer overrun sounds more logical. But this much I can tell you: This is a major discovery. When so many of us have tried so many things, pulling our hair out with clicks and pops, and worrying silly over it, the solution that just fixes it cold with no exceptions has GOT to be a major deal.

This has got to go to Apple and MOTU both, though I really think it's just a DP problem When I play my keyboard outside of DP, the audio is significantly better and the pops are gone. Now, with this aggregate device, the audio sounds like it does outside DP.

Shooshie

<small>[ August 03, 2005, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: Shooshie ]</small>
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qo
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Re: Crackling audio? Try CoreAudio Aggregate Devices.

Post by qo »

Shooshie, it's wonderful to hear that this helps in your setup as well! Yes, I'm inclined to think it's with DP as well. It could be that this starting happening about the same time Apple added Aggregate Device support to CoreAudio. Wasn't it about the same time everyone was upgrading to 4.5x and started complaining about these artifacts? If this is the case, then Apple's modifications have thrown a wrench into DP's gears somehow. I agree that MOTU and Apple need to talk :-)
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Shooshie
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Re: Crackling audio? Try CoreAudio Aggregate Devices.

Post by Shooshie »

I just added a tip to the DP Tips Page regarding this. In fact, it's the first tip in the whole series, now, and it's pasted below:

SUPER HOT SET-UP TIP FOR CRACKLING AUDIO!
[Editor's Note: the following tip is something of a breakthrough for Digital Performer users at the time of its writing (August 4, 2005). Since we will be telling MOTU about this, it is hoped that before too much time has passed, this tip will be no longer necessary, and thus long forgotten, but for now it brings relief to those who have been pulling their hair out over this bug. I have tested it thoroughly and added some info to the original tip, but all credit goes to our fellow forum member, qo, who pursued this problem until he found the answer! Cheers for qo!

Category: Setup, bug work-around
Unexplained Pops and Clicks in audio
Works in: Audio/MIDI Setup version 2.1
Unexplained crackling and pops in live audio through DP (as well as Soundbite auditions and some other audio) that just won't go away no matter how you set things up were a major annoyance for some users. It seems to affect those who use more than one hardware and/or software interface simultaneously. It has been shown that this has occurred inconsistently since DP version 4.0, and it has affected a variety of audio interfaces, including:
••• Apogee AD-16X & DA-16X,
••• M-Audio Firewire Solo,
••• MOTU 1296
••• MOTU 896
••• MOTU 2408 mkII
..and probably most or all others. It happens on most or all models of Macintosh. There are some versions of DP in which it apparently is not a problem, but since approximately DP version 4.52 it has returned to plague even those who did not experience it earlier. Nothing seemed to help. Until...

I created a "CoreAudio Aggregate Device" in Audio/MIDI Setup, and selected it in the Hardware setup panel DP. Crackling audio is history. 100% gone. Vamoosh. Demons cast out! I have no idea why this would be the case other than it must be changing how DP interacts with CoreAudio. But, it does work. Note: Clicks/pops still rear their heads, but they do so appropriately, as in when DP's CPU Performance meter maxes out, or when certain setup parameters are changed on the fly. To solve this, the standard sorts of things apply (increase buffer size, freeze tracks, etc).]

1) Go to Audio/MIDI Setup, Apple's utility for managing your Core Audio and Core MIDI ports and connections. Click on the Audio side in the buttons at the top of the window.
2) Look in the Menu Bar to open AUDIO ••â€
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
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qo
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Re: Crackling audio? Try CoreAudio Aggregate Devices.

Post by qo »

Awesome Shooshie, many thanks for your extra detective work, testing, and summarization!
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Re: Crackling audio? Try CoreAudio Aggregate Devices.

Post by azusa749a »

Wow!! This is the coolest trick of the year.
Great job qo.
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Re: Crackling audio? Try CoreAudio Aggregate Devices.

Post by grimepoch »

Yes, this is a huge relief. As for the multi-interface, what would be neat is if some people could benchmark multiple interfaces like I did, not just the internal interface. I haven't purchased my second 896 yet so I am not able to test with that yet.

My curiousity is, when using just your first interface. When you select additional interfaces in either DP or aggregate mode, do you see a performance hit even when you aren't actually using anything on that interface. I am seeing that with the internal interface selected in either case, even though I am not actually using the input of output for anything in DP.

The big reason I ask, maybe some gear works better together than others. Maybe the order on the firewire bus makes a difference. Would be interesting to know those metrics.

But, outside of that, thanks for the tip, as I said, fixed that issue!
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Re: Crackling audio? Try CoreAudio Aggregate Devices.

Post by MT »

I have seen no difference whatsoever in performance as far as the LynxTWO cards are concerned.

MT
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Re: Crackling audio? Try CoreAudio Aggregate Devices.

Post by qo »

Originally posted by enc0der:
My curiousity is, when using just your first interface. When you select additional interfaces in either DP or aggregate mode, do you see a performance hit even when you aren't actually using anything on that interface. I am seeing that with the internal interface selected in either case, even though I am not actually using the input of output for anything in DP.

The big reason I ask, maybe some gear works better together than others. Maybe the order on the firewire bus makes a difference. Would be interesting to know those metrics.

But, outside of that, thanks for the tip, as I said, fixed that issue!
Hi Rick,

Perhaps the performance will degrade if the inherent latencies of the two (or more) physical devices differ by a large amount, since CoreAudio has to compensate with a larger buffer to give the Aggregate Device a single latency value, which increases the latency of the lower-latency interface? I'm not sure what the latency is for the internal audio though. If it's really high, and the 896 is really low, then the 896's latency has to be raised to that of the internal?

Maybe there is a "latency difference threshold" over which CoreAudio starts to perform worse.
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Shooshie
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Re: Crackling audio? Try CoreAudio Aggregate Devices.

Post by Shooshie »

Originally posted by MT:
I have seen no difference whatsoever in performance as far as the LynxTWO cards are concerned.

MT
Are you talking about latency and CPU hit, or about the crackles and pops? Did the pops go away?

If not, could you tell me your setup? It may become necessary to post the hardware configurations that work or do not work for this tip.

Shooshie
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
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Re: Crackling audio? Try CoreAudio Aggregate Devices.

Post by grimepoch »

I think we are talking about two separate things, me bringing up a second point I observed after working on the crackling issues.

To be specific, trying to run two devices inside of DP using DPs methodology appears to cause sound specific crackling. I think the question remains if this happens with (a) Only motu hardware (ie 2 896s) . So far, I believe we've observed that in combination of 2 different manufacturers (one including MOTU) or two of the same from another manufacturers.

The second issue I reported was the CPU hit with trying to use the internal TOSLINK port of the G5 in both aggregate and dual interface(DP) mode. I was curious if this was probably something to do with the internal sound device, which I am believing is the case now. As was pointed out, it's possible the internal device is just not fast enough as far as latency concerns, or some other bus issue I imagine.

Another good point would be hardware. Maybe people should list what they are using and getting the crackling. For me, it would be:

CPU: 1.8 Ghz Dual G5 running Tiger 10.4.2
DP: 4.6
INP: (1)896 Using 8-Analog Ins, 8 through ADAT
and 2 through EBU/AES.
(1)Internal TOSLINK
[MacPro-4x2.66/7G/OSX10.5.2 - 2x896HD - ADA8000 - Lucid Genx6 - DP5.13 - Logic 8.02 - 2xUAD1e - ExpressXT - Mach5 - MX4 - Korg LegD - impOSCar - Battery3 - uTonic - Rapture - DimPro - Vanguard - Reaktor5 - Absynth4 - FM8 - Pro53 - Vokator - Waldorf Ed - Addictive Drums - Melodyne - Ultra Analog - Zebra2 - WaveArts - - Altiverb - Etc. ]
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MT
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Re: Crackling audio? Try CoreAudio Aggregate Devices.

Post by MT »

I think I misunderstood what you were looking for. Yes, I have the crackling issues, but until I read the bulk of this thread, I didn't realize this fix would apply to me. Didn't have time at lunch to apply the technique, but I'll be doing so first thing this evening. The only time I get crackling and popping is while playing a Reason device through MIDI with DP stopped. Once I hit play, the problems go away. Weird.

Shooshie - In general though, the hardware and software have behaved (latency, cracks, etc.) the same with one or two cards in (I tried both configs when I first setup my G5).

Hope that helps.

MT

<small>[ August 04, 2005, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: MT ]</small>
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dbudde
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Re: Crackling audio? Try CoreAudio Aggregate Devices.

Post by dbudde »

There's a nice article on SoundonSound about this here:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul05/articles/tiger.htm
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Re: Crackling audio? Try CoreAudio Aggregate Devices.

Post by Jaysplace101 »

I'm wondering if I need to go to a whole grain aggregate cereal in the morning. I'm having serious trouble with my rice krispies crackling.

Sorry, couldn't resist. Great find/thread btw.

j
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Re: Crackling audio? Try CoreAudio Aggregate Devices.

Post by Shooshie »

Originally posted by dbudde:
There's a nice article on SoundonSound about this here:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul05/articles/tiger.htm
Very informative! Thanks.

Shooshie
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
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Shooshie
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Re: Crackling audio? Try CoreAudio Aggregate Devices.

Post by Shooshie »

Originally posted by Jayman:
I'm wondering if I need to go to a whole grain aggregate cereal in the morning. I'm having serious trouble with my rice krispies crackling.

Sorry, couldn't resist. Great find/thread btw.

j
Well, there you go, see? Crispies in/crispies out. You want smooth, it's going to have to be cream of wheat for you, bud!
;)
Shooshie
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
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