Britney Spears' production has got me wondering...

[tommymandel]

James Brown definitely had side chaining going on - didn't you ever see him do that dance, where he's standing on 1 foot, and then all of a sudden, as if pulled by an invisible chain, he starts moving sideways?! Side Chaining, right there, Gaz.

[Frodo]

i is not very smart. but i do know. you start out with good quality samples in electro musica you is gonna end up wit good sounding stuff.

I don't disagree with the starting with good samples part of it-- but how those samples are cared for after the fact plays an enormous role in the end result. There are tons of great mixes out there that rely heavily on lo-fi samples, so one's assessment of what's "good" becomes relative to each individual project.

I agree with the "crap in, crap out" theory, but this may lead to a side discussion of what differentiates a good quality sample from one that is considered to be appropriate.

[FMiguelez]

Could you please cite what you call a "classic, something that people will listen to in years to come"?? IN THIS SAME STYLE. Maybe I'd like to check it out

How about Sex Machine by James Brown ? Don't know if its the same style but its a classic - its about performance. Don't know if there was any side-chaining going on there - doubt it to be honest. Its simple but it sounds right.

Ok. Yeah, I know a few classics too, but I meant in this particular style. I don't know if it's just me, but I don't think these albums, Britney's in this case, are about PERFORMANCE. To me, the point of these tracks are the programming, processing, tweaking, comming up with interesting sounds, etc. It's almost as if the TRUE performer are the arrangers/Synthesists (is that a word?) and engineers. It's like if she was just one more instrumet, or one more effect...

i is not very smart. but i do know. you start out with good quality samples in electro musica you is gonna end up wit good sounding stuff. wifout beating yo hed against the mising bowd. like i said...i is not very smart...but it does be electronic music. keyboards, synths, and drum machines dont need too much doctorins.

Hmmm.... Aren't you oversimplyfiying too much?? Tons of people have ridiculous ammounts of loop collections, yet their sound is nowhere near this. You make it sound like just throwing together a few loops and samples will work it's magic on it's own.

uh yeah, i jsut went to itunes. and that album isnt really full of complex traks and stuff. im sure there are more doctorins to them there vocals then there is actual music tracks.

Wow... Well, it sounds pretty complex to me I'd LOVE to listen to music that you consider very "doctorin". Could you recommend something you would consider complex and very doctored?? I'm curious now. I do hear A LOT MORE than just your average instruments...

is actual music tracks. bass, bd, sd, clap, cymbal, hihat,
random dance sounding noise, melody(laugh), and more random dance noises. uh yeah, there is not really a lot goins on. so its easy to fis em up.
yeah dats it

Sorry, but I think that is a very simplistic view. If it was that easy I would not be asking these questions. Maybe YOU are one of those Britney's producers for all I know, and it's naturally easy for you. But that approach you are using is like if someone asked me about orchestrating a concert piece, and I told him: "nah! It's easy. Just throw a bunch of strings, put some woodwinds and stick some barking brass in a few parts for impact" That doesn't even begin to describe what orchestration is, correct?



Ok. One thing I KNOW I need to practice is giving each instrument it's frequency space. A good and suitable arrangement is mandatory, of course, but even if it's great, I've noticed that great mixes have every instrument sitting in its own place, without fighting and clashing with the rest. I usually apply Low cut filters bellow the uncharacteristic frequencies of the instruments, but that's below. How about ABOVE?? Do you guys also apply high cut filters to things like guitars, vocals, etc?? How about the reverb?? Do you EQ that as well??
One of the songs has a lot of reverb in the vocals (also de background ones), but it's so clear and not muddy at all. You CAN hear the reverb, but it doesn't stand in anyone's way... How do you achieve this?? The few times I've tried to greatly reduce the frequency spectrum of the reverb, it comes out sounding awful. If I leave only the frequencies at the middle it sounds like a telephone, if I take out the high end then it sounds dull, etc.

I know these things take lots of practice, and I can't pretend I'll learn these things over night, but sometimes I feel that trying those things without direction is like shooting in the dark... I need a teacher

Has anyone here tried this??

http://register.waves.com/wavesstore/storemain.aspx


Do you know of something similar, but maybe better??

Thank you all for participating, despite the less-than-attractive title of this thread

[FMiguelez]

aaaah,

This is my neck of the woods.

Electro!

I'm by far no expert. But I've gotten pretty good at this sound. I think this production is pretty heavy on sidechaining, (pumping the bass off the Kick). This allows bigger bass and kick because they are working off instead of on each other. We typically use two bass sounds too. one above the kick frequency and one below.

Also a lot of compression, (L3)....and selective EQ.

Hi, Tod. This is very interesting. And what you say at the end about the bass sounds pretty much nails what I want to understand. When you say "We typically use two bass sounds too. one above the kick frequency and one below", how do you find, narrow down select these frequencies?? For instance, as Frodo mentioned early, a lot of the desirable sound in the Kick drum lives quite high in the freq spectrum. How would you EQ a the bass bellow, the Kick, and the Bass above?? How much of each do you cut away? Is it pretty drastic? How much space do you allow each and manage to sound good together?

Cheers.

[Frodo]

I've noticed that great mixes have every instrument sitting in its own place, without fighting and clashing with the rest. I usually apply Low cut filters bellow the uncharacteristic frequencies of the instruments, but that's below. How about ABOVE?? Do you guys also apply high cut filters to things like guitars, vocals, etc??

Rule #1: Do what's necessary! If it doesn't help, don't add needless processing.

How about the reverb?? Do you EQ that as well??

Of course. Often, low end will be rolled off and other frequencies are shaped to add just the right amount of sparkle and compatibility with the rest of the track. You don't really want a lot of lo-freq reverb if avoiding a muddy mix is your goal.

One of the songs has a lot of reverb in the vocals (also de background ones), but it's so clear and not muddy at all. You CAN hear the reverb, but it doesn't stand in anyone's way... How do you achieve this??

You have to really dig in and get into programming reverbs to suit your purpose. In fact, not everything that is perceived as reverb really is reverb. It may just be delay carefully tucked into the mix. Not every track will have or will need reverb.

The few times I've tried to greatly reduce the frequency spectrum of the reverb, it comes out sounding awful. If I leave only the frequencies at the middle it sounds like a telephone, if I take out the high end then it sounds dull, etc.

One of the best "teachers" is trial and error. You are doing the right things by trying things out and deciding what you DON'T like. That is a major part of defining what it is you DO want. Keep on experimenting and pay careful attention to what your ears tell you!

I know these things take lots of practice, and I can't pretend I'll learn these things over night, but sometimes I feel that trying those things without direction is like shooting in the dark... I need a teacher

Someone once told me that practice doesn't make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect. There is an art to perfecting even the learning process, especially when it comes to audio engineering. It's the process of getting to the point where you can distinguish what you "think" you hear from what you actually do hear.

Is there an engineer locally who would allow you to sit in on mixing sessions to observe and takes notes? They may not want to answer a lot of questions on the spot, but afterwards it could be nice to pick his/her brain over a nice meal. Sitting in on sessions is invaluable for retraining the ears.

Even a course in audio engineering might be in order, but I don't know what might be available in your area that fits in with your work schedule.

[tommymandel]

MY LIST of Synth PRODUCTIONS to EMULATE or STUDY:
Scritti Politi (Her Perfect Way, or something like that) - david gamson
Thomas Dolby (anything, really, it's pretty ecclectic) - td of course
Prince (I Would Die For You) - his purpleness
SOS Band (Just Be Good To Me) - jam and lewis prod.
Steve Winwood (My Love Is Leavin) - russ titleman or narada prod.
Kate Bush (Comin Up This Hill)

for newer stuff, although I don't say I like it all,
Justin Timberlake (Cry Me a River)
Stars (Calendar Girl)
Frou Frou (whole CD)
Pharrell Williams (Frontin' or Let's Get Blown)
Here In Your Arms (Hello Goodbye)

[FMiguelez]

Even a course in audio engineering might be in order, but I don't know what might be available in your area that fits in with your work schedule.

I wouldn't mind going to the USA and live/study there for another 10 years

Seriously, I'll really consider your advice about befriending a good engineer and see him at work in action. I'll make some phone calls and see what I come up with.

Wow, and engineering (mixing) is just ONE aspect. How about PRODUCING those cool, harsh sounds/effects... The programming/production chops are another key ingridiant. Man, SO much stuff to learn, so little time

I've been meaning to REALLY get my hands dirty and get heavily into this stuff, but the day only has 24 hours, and lots of those are taken by work. Not that I complaing, since I'm greatful I can make a living with my music, but I would need 48-hour days to be able to learn all the things I want.

Patience, Fernando, patience.... aaaarrrggghhhh!!!


GGGGRRRRRRRRRR. And THIS stupid client has been an ass all day long. Now he wants me to make a christmas song out of a cumbia

I need more Britney

[TOD]

FMiguelez,

Sorry,

I've been in the studio all night working on another meaningless disposable electro track. . A really great way to hear one of these "tricks" is to side chain.

MOTU's dynamics plug works really well.

Take your 4/4 Kick and duplicate the track.

Pull the duplicate tracks volume to 0. and set the send to "p" (pre-fader)

Now send it to a mono send, (i use bus 10)

Now create an aux track. make its output the same as your main output. Create a new stereo input for this aux, (ie; buss 1-2) Add a dynamics plug to it. Set the trigger in the dynamics plug to bus 10, (your Kick will now trigger the compressor)

set your attack to 0.3, your release to fast (0.1-0.4), you ratio to 6-8:1.

Now, set your bass line or lead synth or both to output 1-2.

So, now you are bussing the lead / bass into the sidechain compressor.

Play with the threshold and feel the pump!

This is a big part of this style. You are now able to create Louder parts, (Kick / lead, vox because they are pumping off the Kick)..We use multiple sidechain filters to create layers of sound.

Suggested listening:

Justice
Daft Punk
Robbie Rivera
Benny Bennasi

It may not be timeless, but it is now.

[FMiguelez]

MY LIST of Synth PRODUCTIONS to EMULATE or STUDY:
Scritti Politi (Her Perfect Way, or something like that) - david gamson
Thomas Dolby (anything, really, it's pretty ecclectic) - td of course
Prince (I Would Die For You) - his purpleness
SOS Band (Just Be Good To Me) - jam and lewis prod.
Steve Winwood (My Love Is Leavin) - russ titleman or narada prod.
Kate Bush (Comin Up This Hill)

for newer stuff, although I don't say I like it all,
Justin Timberlake (Cry Me a River)
Stars (Calendar Girl)
Frou Frou (whole CD)
Pharrell Williams (Frontin' or Let's Get Blown)
Here In Your Arms (Hello Goodbye)

Checking them out in iTunes as we speak

[tommymandel]

TOD's list is probably more what you're looking for though.

[FMiguelez]

FMiguelez,

Sorry,

I've been in the studio all night working on another meaningless disposable electro track. . A really great way to hear one of these "tricks" is to side chain.

MOTU's dynamics plug works really well.

Take your 4/4 Kick and duplicate the track.

Pull the duplicate tracks volume to 0. and set the send to "p" (pre-fader)

Now send it to a mono send, (i use bus 10)

Now create an aux track. make its output the same as your main output. Create a new stereo input for this aux, (ie; buss 1-2) Add a dynamics plug to it. Set the trigger in the dynamics plug to bus 10, (your Kick will now trigger the compressor)

set your attack to 0.3, your release to fast (0.1-0.4), you ratio to 6-8:1.

Now, set your bass line or lead synth or both to output 1-2.

So, now you are bussing the lead / bass into the sidechain compressor.

Play with the threshold and feel the pump!

This is a big part of this style. You are now able to create Louder parts, (Kick / lead, vox because they are pumping off the Kick)..We use multiple sidechain filters to create layers of sound.

Now, THAT is generous knowledge sharing. Thanks so much, TOD. I'll try that ASAP.

Hey, it's a start
I'll try it out, and experiment to see what I come up with.

Cheers!

[cubehead]

It seems odd that nobody has mentioned the fact that they are working on the best gear in the world. No offense to anyone on this board but most if not all of us are either mixing in the box or on some mediocre mixer. They have access to every piece of analog and digital gear on earth. Not that the gear makes good records but some of that clarity you are talking about comes from the ammount of headroom in the gear they are using... That being said while I am amazed by the way those records sound I also must point out that I HATE the way those reocrds sound...... If you want to hear a record recorded really well with real instruments and real songs check out the new Steve Earle record...

http://www.steveearle.com/music/albums/ ... enade.aspx

[TOD]

I wish I could write a timeless piece. My songwriting skills are just not there yet. I strive for it. I aspire to be there someday. My music is my progeny since I choose not to breed.

With that said, I really enjoy the technical challenge this style of music demands. I guess I'm like the absent minded professor trying to create "flubber". (okay I'm dated now).

Coming from an industrial background, this style fits my experimental agenda. I appreciate it and love it. Brittany's producers are bringing our underground techniques to the mainstream. Just like Madonna before her. And the world goes......POP!

[emulatorloo]

MY LIST of Synth PRODUCTIONS to EMULATE or STUDY:
Scritti Politi (Her Perfect Way, or something like that) - david gamson

Ah yes that's a fantastic recording -- I was listening to that CD, "Cupid and Psyche" just today. Great production, you can hear every interwoven spiky note.

Scritti Politti's "Provision" is pretty special too. "Boom There She Was!" "First Boy in this Town" "Sugar and Spice."

I like to imagine that Madonna's "Ray of Light," produced by William Orbit is a classic in this genre. Nice production, nice performance, nice songwriting, and sounds from the beloved Korg MS-20. And guitars too -- nice mix of synth and guitars which at least to my ears was/is very exciting.

--

--

[FMiguelez]

.

Nice. I do like Country music (some). Actually I like pretty much anything EXCEPT reggaeton. It goes on my nerves (except the chicks ).

The thing is that recording accoustic instruments, as nice as it sure is, holds no interest to me whatsoever. I don't have the gear nor the knowledge to do that, and I just don't find it very rewarding. Maybe it is because I didn't grow up with gear and when I started my career things were already in the box. What I like about electronic stuff is that I can (could) do it, and can experiment on my own to my heart's content.
I do, however, appreciate the skill and mastery of recording engineers who make those accoustic instruments come to life and make a track rock. I already have my hands full with new things to learn