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Very thoughtful and informed post Frodo, as usual. I agree with what you're saying, but I think it's a little alarmist to say Apple may crumble under its own weight because it diversified its product line. We're talking about the survival of the company, not necessary the inevitable multiplication of technical glitches associated with expansion. There was a time not long ago when the future of the platform was in doubt. These days Apple seems more solid than ever, thanks in large part to its "iToys."

As for our thing, I think you could make a strong argument that audio development has stagnated or even declined in the last few years. But, we are doing more than ever with our computers and our expectations have perhaps exceeded the growth we were expecting. It irks me too that the foundation upon which we build our livelihood still shows signs of disrepair, and I'm sure it bugs the hell out of Logic users that GB development has lapped that of their own DAW. But to suggest this anticipates the crumblings of a growing empire is a little extreme to me.

blue wrote:As for our thing, I think you could make a strong argument that audio development has stagnated or even declined in the last few years. But, we are doing more than ever with our computers and our expectations have perhaps exceeded the growth we were expecting. It irks me too that the foundation upon which we build our livelihood still shows signs of disrepair, and I'm sure it bugs the hell out of Logic users that GB development has lapped that of their own DAW. But to suggest this anticipates the crumblings of a growing empire is a little extreme to me.

Yeah, hence my personal inclusing of the clause "if a proper balance cannot be sustained" and "the balance of issues are not out of hand yet".

There is no question that iToys has sent the focus and momentum away from the computer as a DAW. We've seen a lot of things stagnate lately, and other major developments going on at Apple in hardware and software have been seen over the past year-- EXCEPT for Logic.

I think that's were we as DAW users start to feel the pinch-- and even if Apple itself is not going to "crumble under its own weight" in the general sense, DAW users are clearly feeling the burden to a noticeable extent. Multimedia is more focused now on internet development as well as video, so all of this only serves to make DAW users feel more like the not-so-silent minority in all of this.

The delay of M5v2 didn't help the wait, but perhaps its release marks the beginning of a new era. I'm also encouraged by news coming from Apogee, which has been some of the most inspired and encouraging I've heard all year. The care and attention to detail they appear to be dedicating to the Mac platform arrives like the first rays of sunshine after a bleak winter.

Now, here we are on the eve of Leopard, AES and NAMM where (I hope) more attention to the needs of DAW users will be revealed and even made available at long last. It's not that every DAW user will jump into 10.5 in October, but it really does help to use such announcements as road signs to assess where things are and where things are going.

But gotta say-- I simply cannot have another head-banging, wallet-crunching, system-failing summer in 2008 like 2006 and 2007 have proven to be; and it's hard enough as it is to again have to wait another year to see just whether or not my long nightmare is really over.

Patience. Hmm.

They say tribulation worketh patience. I'm starting to believe them.

Frodo wrote:Yeah, hence my personal inclusing of the clause "if a proper balance cannot be sustained" and "the balance of issues are not out of hand yet".

To be clear, it wasn't your post I was calling out as being alarmist. I think your points were well balanced.

I've long had the feeling that audio people such as ourselves have been piggybacking the advances made in computing over the years. We've gone a long way in spite of the fact that we represent a small minority of the people using computers. For us to have the sort of audio power and stability we crave, we would need a dedicated OS and hardware to go with it. I am actually pretty surprised how well things run on my system considering what I put it through. Do I want more? Of course. But I recognize the fact that I am using an OS that caters to a lower common denominator.

blue wrote:

Frodo wrote:Yeah, hence my personal inclusing of the clause "if a proper balance cannot be sustained" and "the balance of issues are not out of hand yet".

To be clear, it wasn't your post I was calling out as being alarmist. I think your points were well balanced.

Thanks, blue. I knew what you meant, but I was attempting to gather the subtext of the various posts as well.

The pinch is there and keely felt-- and again this question of having no number pad on the wireless version feels more like a needless compromise than anything to get too excited about. If there are too many of these questionable innovations, then Apple will most likely feel the same pinch from dictating a user's need rather than carefully calculating what those needs are and meeting them.

I struggle at times to keep my more pessimistic side from emerging, but between you and I (sshhhh-- don't tell anyone...) I'm a little upset with Apple right now. It's so hard to pinpoint just what they are dictating to us as they see our needs vs what actual needs they are meeting. And when I say "our" I mean "we" as DAW users. If Logic is on hold for the moment, it's no wonder that other companies, including MOTU, are likewise waiting patiently for the next shoe to drop.

blue wrote: I've long had the feeling that audio people such as ourselves have been piggybacking the advances made in computing over the years. We've gone a long way in spite of the fact that we represent a small minority of the people using computers. For us to have the sort of audio power and stability we crave, we would need a dedicated OS and hardware to go with it. I am actually pretty surprised how well things run on my system considering what I put it through. Do I want more? Of course. But I recognize the fact that I am using an OS that caters to a lower common denominator.

It make sme wonder, blue. Everyone knows that video is more demanding than audio, and yet it's the audio side that hangs in the balance while FCP Studio gets a major update-- and where Macromedia and Adobe have now joined forces.

Yeah, we push our systems, no doubt, but I've got a list of issues which don't push my system in the most obvious ways--

-- projects between 500MB and 2GB are suffering from out of memory crashes when 4GB should really be plenty where 8GB of RAM are installed

-- DP not exporting AIFF or WAV-- options not available

-- Virtual Instruments not showing up or, worse, disappearing

-- Incessant file corruption (I've lost count of how many times I've uninstalled my apps and various versions of OSX from 10.4.8 on up)

But more and more, I'm less inclined to blame the hardware and more inclined to blame the software-- OS included. I keep wondering if I'm asking too much from my system, but I'm well within limits. It's just driven me to a near-Rogaine insanity.

And while all of this is going on, I've grown to detest the sound of that <arrrgg!!> iPhone mandolin track!! What a shame-- it has such a nice hobbity spirit about it.

There are just not enough of us going through this to make a huge enough noise to induce a remedy sooner than later, so when you see iToys taking over or a new keyboard you'd like to get without a silly number pad-- it just makes you wonder.

blue wrote:...I think it's a little alarmist to say Apple may crumble under its own weight because it diversified its product line...

My point is that the diverse product line is (seemingly) leading to issues in "quality control" such as the iPod screens issue, the iPhone issues, the new keyboard issues, software problems, etc.

I think it is great that Apple is so diverse, but can they keep up with the demand they've created in terms of supplying a quality product? I don't think the danger to Apple is exaggerated at all. But heck, it's only my opinion. If you want to call that alarmist, so be it.

OldTimey wrote:i will jump on the new keyboard as soon as they release a full sized wireless one...or

they release 16-core mac pros. which ever comes first!

Then the apps to exploit them hehe...

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:My point is that the diverse product line is (seemingly) leading to issues in "quality control" such as the iPod screens issue, the iPhone issues, the new keyboard issues, software problems, etc.

That may be true, but it doesn't explain the quality control issues from the pre-iPod days, of which there were plenty. Another explanation for the recent spate of issues could simply be that there are more products and thus more potential for failure. Technical glitches are not uncommon in the electronics world, and Apple now has a much larger number of total units being sold to the public. Doesn't mean they've spread themselves too thin.

Oh well. This is all just conjecture, but predicting the potential demise of the company is just a wild leap in a dark place.

Hey James,

Does it have a numeric keypad? I think the one I saw didn't. That's something I can't live without.

Phil

Yes... it absolutely has a numeric keypad. I believe it's the wireless version that does not have the numeric keyboard. I bought the normal corded keyboard and again, it has a numeric keypad.

blue wrote:http://money.cnn.com/2007/08/21/technol ... 2007082206

Some interesting wording in the article:

Apple is growing faster than its competitors because it improves its hardware and software more often than anyone else. It is broadening what we think of as a consumer-oriented PC...

I suppose there's some credibility to such a statement, although I've never though of Apple being just a consumer-oriented PC. But perhaps the catchiness of the whole iThis and iThat from iMac to iBook to iWork to i-Yi-yi has filled in a part of the market for students and novices which was not being otherwise addressed to its fullest extent in the Dell and HP arenas.

I can accept that the most powerful Macs haven't been the big money makers for them, but the article seems to overlook pro users of the top-line models as if at one time it were a passing marketing strategy long forgotten for the sake of iToys. I mean, Lucasfilm alone buys Mac towers 500-600 at a time just for DVD mastering, but it's probable that few are aware of that.

Student and novice appeal are all fine and dandy, but I've always dreaded the idea that the boost of iToys might erode *impressions* of the Mac being a world-class professional machine which goes well beyond what Dells and HPs tend to routinely do in office cubicles on a daily basis.... and for the same reasons those same Dells and HPs are home to some of the finest multimedia workstations as well.

I don't know. Seems like the Mac's fall from grace as the platform of choice for creative professionals happened a long time before the iToy explosion. Until the switch to Intel, we'd been hearing for years how high end PCs were outperforming the best Macs for a lot less money. I was personally shocked when Adobe started porting PC versions of Photoshop and Illustrator before the Mac versions. Of course, there's more to that story than I will go into here, but it still was a big slap in the face. I mean, the creative professional was the only demographic Apple truly owned, and even that was slipping.

Things were not looking so well for Apple before Steve came back and rolled out the iMac. Since then it's been a pretty steady pattern of growth. If that growth can be attributed to the company's more commercial options, so be it. I would rather that be forced to use a PC.

I see a shift less in Apple's priorities than in the scope of computing in general, and this might be what the article alludes to when it says Apple may be "broadening what we think of as a consumer-oriented PC." Computers are not just for the office anymore. They're steadily creeping into the rest of our lives. They manage our photos, our music, our connection to the rest of the world. I see what Apple is doing now as being similar to what they did in the beginning; Bring us the previously unattainable and make it fun. In that sense, nothing has changed.

It's such an odd business, this Mac stuff, and this is such a strange transition-- one of the strangest I've ever seen. There's nothing really earth shattering happening just yet, although I suspect that will change sooner than later. I'm hoping so, anyway.

It's just feels either like being in the eye of a hurricane with everything else whirling around you, or it's more simply the lull before the storm.

I'm really eager to hear about what Winter NAMM has to offer.

Nothing earth shattering, that's for sure. But it does seem like we're inching closer to media integration. That's where it all seems to be heading at the moment, for better or worse

In spite of my wonder at Apple's recent success, I am worried a bit about the future direction of OSX as exhibited in the Leopard demos. There is some great stuff in there, but a lot of the new additions seem pretty superficial. Coverflow in the Finder looks cool, but how practical is it to go through your files sequentially and visually when you're actually trying to get some work done? Quick Look is nice, though, and I guess CF is based on QL technology.

I was hoping for some bigger changes for the Finder, not to mention some minor usability tweaks. Like being able to rename/delete files from the Open/Save dialog. I mean, come on! Instead, the change the folder icons. Why? The older ones were actually a lot nicer looking!

Stacks is OK, but it doesn't seem to do much that I couldn't already do with decent file organization. And the way they implemented it, with the stacks popping out of the "deck" at an angle? WTF is that? It looks like something Microsoft would design. It's ugly.

Time Machine is an awesome idea and I hope it works as well as they say. But look at the thing. It's also really, really ugly. Who is Apple appealing to here? I mean, they always had eye appeal, but it was always mixed with elegance. Now it looks like their aesthetic is shifting towards the pimply faced.

I'm going to have to resume reading up on 10.5. I'm sure there are a lot of cosmetics involved, but those who've used Macs always make a point of looking beneath the patina of coolness for substance.

As with Tiger, I'm sure there will be a lot of features that will be entirely useless to me.

One thing I find encouraging is that 10.5 is now 100% UNIX compliant. If this removes some of the caveats of sub-shells, all the better. Hopefully, developers will not fall back on old shortcuts and will opt to make apps 100% native, enabling a true bypass of the likes of Rosetta whenever possible.

Information is power--- forwarned is forearmed. If only there were enough hours in a single day!