DP Market Share? Anyone know?

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FMiguelez
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Post by FMiguelez »

blue wrote:
FMiguelez wrote:I see. I studied at Berklee College of Music, and, unless they've changed the student's apps in the past few years, they taught Film Scoring with DP.••¦So, unless they've changed apps (hope they haven't replaced DP for Logic), they have a lot of graduates comming out to the world and using DP for Film/composing work.
In the last 3 years I've met about 10 people who have recently come to LA from Berklee. 2 of them use DP, the rest Logic. Not all of them majored in film scoring, but they all are budding film composers.

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

I'd be SHOCKED if they dropped MOTU!!! I remember Berklee used to have some kind of deal with them. Well, I must admit that was more than a few years ago...
Last edited by FMiguelez on Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by rcannonp »

Maybe DP needs some fake cats for background accompaniment.
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Post by blue »

rcannonp wrote:Maybe DP needs some fake cats for background accompaniment.
You read my mind.
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Post by HeadMaster »

chrispick wrote:
Mr. Quimper wrote:I am beginning to think that the lack of a demo is seriously hurting the potential for new users.
I agree.

I use DP and really like it these days. And, as you might see, I also work to sustain some sort of user community by posting on this site. But, I do question the longevity of the product line. It's name recognition is definitely slipping.

Case in point:

A few weeks ago I brought stems made in DP to a PT session. The producer, a 20-something dude, really liked my stuff and asked how I created it. I said "I did this-and-that in Digital Performer." He said, "Wow. That program's old." As in, on its last legs.

I wouldn't be surprised to find other music-types his age having the same view.

I think, at the least, MOTU needs to focus an awareness campaign on this demo, particularly in media-prod heavy markets.

My cynical observation: MOTU had good popularity with plain Performer back in the day. The user landscape has changed, but their head regarding the program remains a decade behind.

That's not going to be a popular opinion around here, but there it is.
In my experience, it's very often classical composers/arrangers, and high level professionals that use DP, one of the reasons to why we are switching from ProTools is partly becuase the producer I work with mostly work with other producers running MOTU systems, the other big reason is coz I am dead tired of proprietary digi crap and RTAS/TDM only plug-in world, I got so many new beautiful pliug-ins at bargain prices in comparison with being stuck in digiland.

REAL MEN USE DP!

:D

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Post by HeadMaster »

FMiguelez wrote:.

I was just thinking:
Would anyone here have any decent idea of what MOTU's finances are like now?
I mean, they are ok, right? Is there any indication they are loosing money because of DP, or any indications that DP is starting to be a burden for them?
Will they be able to keep up with the cut-throat competition in the DAW world? Do they have enough resources for R&D, so they not only keep up, but stay ahead of the competition??

I knock on wood, and the very thought of them dropping DP would be terrifying... at least for me.

Too much cheap speculation on my part (sorry :oops: ), but I wouldn't ever want to think of having to get a new DAW and learn how to use it. I'd certainly miss all DP's wonderful features!!

Nah, I really hope DP lasts for a long long time, and that it just becomes much better. Hey, all MOTU needs to do is read and implement those 14+ pages of bright ideas in the DP wish-list thread. Well, that, AND implement the marketing ideas you guys have been writing about.
I think that a few important parts would be to:

1. Provide a public demo, to be honest, I used an illegal version of 4.6 before I went all the way, and if I wouldnt have found DP appealing, I would'nt have bought it, nor used the illegal version, I don't use illegal stuff _at all_ on the computers I administrate/use or own, but when I can't access demos of software, I go to the big public internet and see what I can find and consider what I find an ok alternative to a demo and try it, and then buy or ditch when I have gotten enought information to take the decision.

2. A slightly modernisation wouldn't be stupid to do, there's heavy competition out there, and a few things feel kind of "old" (as the non exisiting contextual menus...).

3. Either support AU all the way (sidechain), or help and support third party developers more actively to do MAS versions.

These three simple steps would be a good start!

:D

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Post by Mr. Quimper »

That's it! I've got the solution!


STICKERS!

Live & Reason are HUGELY popular, and they both come with STICKERS!!!




Clearly, if MOTU starts shipping DP w/ stickers, we'll be seeing a surge in DPs popularity in no time! :D
Last edited by Mr. Quimper on Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Mr. Quimper »

You know, I meant that as a joke, but it would actually be an easy way to advertise....
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Post by Mr. Quimper »

Although, it would help if they came up with a standard logo for it first.

MOTU really should get some good graphic designers who understand the power of the iconic logo - instant visual recognition can do a lot.

Again, something Live & Reason have got a great handle on...unlike most other software manufacturers in this business.
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Post by rcannonp »

When did Propellerheads start giving out stickers? I've never gotten any. :x
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Post by Frodo »

blue wrote:Visibility may be misleading, but the general word from 3rd party plugin developers is seemingly not. DP, if regarded at all, is usually at the bottom of the heap in terms of support. Not a good sign.

Though I have no concrete numbers, and don't pretend to speak with any authority, I at least see a trend away from DP in my neck of the woods. With few exceptions, the young composers I have met in this town are using Logic, Live and Cubase.
Not to disagree at all-- just thinking out loud for a second. (You know how we hobbits are...)

There's no question that with Logic there comes a certain Apple safety net, if you will. Live? Hmm. I think the popularity of Live may have just as much or more to do with a different general focus in the world of remixing. Logic and Cubase are more directly in competition with DP as rather "total" scoring and sequencing workstations, although I've not checked out the latest versions of Live to see if film scoring is specifically addressed.

But virtual instruments and the flourishing third-party plugins in general have changed the way people work with DAWs, forced physical developments of hardware, and most importantly for the sake of this discussion-- have created a new set of criteria for new users who started in after the heyday of outboard MIDI gear popularity.

It could very well be that these changes have had an important impact on what people are using and what people choose to avoid.

As for DP support, or the lack, I've had to rethink this one a little bit. There are most certainly good reasons based upon info from the likes of Apogee that there may have been (according to Apogee) what I'll call "inter-developmental conflicts" with MOTU, hence they chose Logic as their showcase app. In fairness, there could have been just as many reasons why Apogee did not choose Nuendo or Cubase or Live for the same purpose.

But I had to take another gander at MAS overall and split up the pros and cons. MAS as an audio engine will be around as long as DP will be. Steinberg has its own engine, Digidesign has its own engine, so there's no reason why DP shouldn't have its own engine.

However, sample formats bearing the same names as their audio engine counterparts are a different matter entirely. Where MAS-native plugins are unquestionably rare, there is one element that has arguably been most influential in all of this: that is the introduction of Audio Units and Apple's efforts to centralize audio and MIDI within its operating systems. The necessity for MAS format plugins is suddenly less pressing, and the lack of MAS format plugins has not crippled the use of these plugins in DP where AU is supported. Where I once thought a lack of MAS plugins were the beginning of the end, I now struggle to find this to be a factor associated with the perception that fewer people are using DP.

This is not saying that DP's numbers are above the rest, but even MOTU hasn't felt a pressing need to flood the market with MAS plugins. To the contrary, such VIs as MachFive and the rest are now cross-platform. Talk about ironic! But it's good to see MOTU moving towards the middle.

For all DP does very well, it's the things that it does with considerable effort or doesn't do at all which might be having a greater impact on how many might avoid it or how many might be jumping ship.

Interestingly enough, for all the complaining I've done about Apple's flood of OS updates lately, Logic hasn't so much as been TOUCHED in about a year-- by not even one single decimal point. It sheds new light on how different DAWs are impacted (or uneffected) by these OS updates. This has been the biggest epiphany: Apple is dealing with Logic's issues at the OS level whereas other developers (ie: MOTU and EW) are having to deal with similar issues at the application level. Hmm.

The truth is, I just have no idea how many people are using or not using DP. Neither am I as sure as I used to be about what factors may be impacting these numbers today vs where they might have been 10 years ago.

The worst of it is that as I read over what I just spent 15 minutes musing about, I'm more confused than ever. :shock:
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Post by Mr. Quimper »

rcannonp wrote:When did Propellerheads start giving out stickers? I've never gotten any. :x
I got a whole sheet of 'em. :wink:
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Post by rcannonp »

Frodo wrote: For all DP does very well, it's the things that it does with considerable effort or doesn't do at all which might be having a greater impact on how many might avoid it or how many might be jumping ship.
Like MIDI regions or contextual menus? Some things in DP seem to be based around old methods and haven't been adapted to newer ways of working.
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Post by James Steele »

Frodo wrote:The truth is, I just have no idea how many people are using or not using DP. Neither am I as sure as I used to be about what factors may be impacting these numbers today vs where they might have been 10 years ago.
There's the bottom line right there. Nobody has any hard numbers... however, in part due to this "nation", in a recent propellorheads poll on their website DP beat out Logic as favorite VI host. The winners were PC apps, but DP beat Logic.

Frankly to the guy whose friend won't use DP because of the Unicorn logo... well no offense, but that's an idiotic reason not to use a piece of software.
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Post by toodamnhip »

Frodo wrote:
blue wrote: Apple is dealing with Logic's issues at the OS level whereas other developers (ie: MOTU and EW) are having to deal with similar issues at the application level. Hmm.
This has been the ONLY thing interesting said in this whole thread...no offense to others posting here..but I really like that hypothesis..it is VERY interesting...

The rest of this thread has been so much guessing as to be more a fairy tale than anything useful...

I mean, it is a discussion group so, we discuss....but facts man,.....there are NONE here...really..none...

You all could be right , completely wrong, 1/2 right, who knows...

Just a bunch of guessing if you ask me...
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Post by Shooshie »

I'll give you a fact. The DAW with the #1 market penetration, the absolute most copies in circulation, is...

[drumroll please]


GARAGEBAND!

It is bundled in iLife, and comes free on every iMac. So, there! See how meaningless these numbers games are? Logic was a cult before Apple bought it. The people who used Logic were like trolls who liked dark closets full of complicated gear, and who loved the word "algorithm." I tease, of course, but Logic was not a serious contender before Apple bought eMagic.

DP was cool in the day. In LA you weren't cool in your limousine unless you had your Powerbook with a copy of Digital Performer on it. Rock stars got on talk shows and talked about how cool the technology was... they'd mix a song on their way to the studio. Well, that stretches my imagination a bit -- or perhaps their idea of a song is my idea of a warmup exercise -- but stories like that filled the airwaves and those tubes on the internets. Pro Tools was for the big, expensive studios. DP was cool, light, and it travelled.

It's not the software that has changed, it's the images, and those things are cyclical. Today's cool is tomorrow's dungheap, and if DP happens to be sitting in the dungheap at the moment, it's at least on top of it. Pretty soon some of the more talented composers will start bragging about their secret weapon again -- DP -- and it will probably cycle back into the cool crowd again.

The DAW wave empowered a lot of people to create music, film scores, CD's, and such who previously could not have gotten their foot into a studio door. People who can't play a scale or sing a note can create a hit record, in theory at least. DP does not cater to that crowd so much. We DP users tend to be a little more grounded in our musical careers or even if its a hobby, we tend to be among those who at least think more like musicians. That has been my experience; it's not something I'd defend to the death.

Someone said DP is often used by older users, and that is true. Many of us who got in on the ground floor of this business found only two real competitors for our tools: DP and Vision. When Opcode died, most of those people came to DP, since it was the most similar to what they had used before. Back then, Cubase was a joke, and Cakewalk wasn't even funny.

To those who worry that DP is on its last legs, remember that it is the oldest still-living DAW in the marketplace. It's been around for over 20 years now, and has had to survive MANY shakedowns. MOTU is a company that has learned how to survive and thrive. Most musicians (as opposed to cool-guy hobbyists) equate MOTU with high-quality, reasonably priced tools created for and by people who understand music and how it's made. There are a LOT more people out there using this than you may realize. If they aren't buying Waves, it's because they are smart enough to know they can get good results with other plugins, or even with the ones that MOTU provides. They let mastering engineers do the plugin thing for them. They are more concerned with composing than mixing and producing CD's. Details like this can skew the numbers a lot if you rely on Waves or UAD to tell you which is the most popular DAW.

Stop the panic. Put the lifeboats back on the ship. MOTU and DP aren't going away. Go tell the world about your tools. It has been my and many other people's goal to help teach serious users some of the techniques we use to make DP work fast, efficiently, and reliably. Use the techniques and make music!

The final cool factor is the music. You go out and make cool music and the world will listen to you. They'll ask about your tools. And they'll take notice. When I've toured the country, playing in some of the finest venues in the USA, I've entertained lots and lots of musical guests backstage, including classical performers, rock stars, music directors, and professors, who always want to see my setup. When they see my well-organized screen and realize how efficiently DP handled the show they just heard, they are more than impressed. Many have told me they also use DP, and that I've inspired them to use it better. I often hear "I didn't know DP could DO that!" from people who've used it for years.

So, hear me when I say that our music is our best ambassador. If you want to ensure that DP will be here next year, get busy and make some music! When you encounter problems, SOLVE them. Learn to work clean and professionally -- that means with backups that prevent loss of data. Stay professional about DP, and don't let your cool-guy friends worry you with Logic. Why should I be concerned about Garageband Sr.? It's got Apple's budget, marketing and websites behind it, and of course it's going to be popular. But it doesn't change my own output.

Lastly, when people tell you that DP doesn't do this or that, or "Logic is just much more capable than DP," it only means they are more familiar with Logic. There are only a few things that either app can do that the other can't. Both have their little specialties and both have their little weaknesses. Those kinds of statements are almost always either wrong, or misguided. Don't be like cattle and spook at the first troll shooing you away. Or even a room full of trolls. Stick to your tools and remember that it's about the music, not the tools.

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