Ivory users, please comment

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:47 pm

I guess we all think of something different when we hear the word "Piano." The piano has been a good portion of my livelihood for the past 15 years, and has always been a part of my concert performances (with someone else playing it). What I'm looking for is that experience of leaning inside the piano, under the opened lid, and hearing that storm of modulating transients. That is specifically missing from the PianoTeq demos I heard; instead, it presents you with a very clean "piano sound." Already tamed. Ivory and Akoustik Piano both give me the storm I'm talking about, though Ivory does it best -- in a league of its own.

Akoustik Piano DOES do one thing that David Polich thought he'd never hear in a sampled piano: lift the pedal up and you'll hear the strings faintly ringing. Also, you can half-pedal and re-pedal and hear the modulation start all over again, just like on a real piano. Not even Ivory does this. But I still take Ivory for my 3-legged bride. It's just incredible. Meanwhile, Akoustik Piano is by no means to be crossed off your list just because of the problems mentioned by mhschmieder. It's not perfect, but it's a fantastik sounding piano.

All good sampled pianos should have enough flexibility built into them that you can get good and bad sounds from them. They should all allow you to set your touch, for instance, with minimum and maximum. Sometimes, just doing that transforms a VI piano. Such is the case with Ivory.

I'm not qualified to judge PianoTeq, having only heard the demos, so I'm not going to sit here and tell you it's not as good as Ivory. I'm just saying that in the demos I did not hear what I want in a piano, and since I already had Ivory, I did not bother to pursue it further. But I'm a person who really has high expectations for a piano, and I expect certain behaviors that probably will never happen in any way other than a sampled piano like Ivory or Akoustik Piano.

By no means is the competition closed. There are all kinds of tastes in this world!

Shooshie

mhschmieder · Post by **mhschmieder** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:53 am

I probably should have qualified that I can only use Akoustik Piano for rendering pre-recorded parts, due to processor requirements. Perhaps I would like it better if I could interact live with it vs. spending a lot of time editing my previously-recorded MIDI to improve the rendered results

.

Also, as would probably be obvious from the above comment, I am unable to find out what it sounds like with the effects turned on, as Digital Performer crashes in just a few milliseconds unless I remember to press the "ECO" button after loading the preferred sample set.

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:10 am

mhschmieder wrote:As I cannot run Pianoteq, and many here will be in the same boat,

I had a fiddle with the demo last year, and found it "plasticy, plunky".
Pianoteq lacked an authentic character IMHO.
Something missing in the mids, and a general lack of "woodiness".
The highs were wierd for me too.
My brain seems to be allergic to mathematical or samey repetition.
Somehow, the math of a more "organic" (that'd be real) sound (samples or next gen modelling?), provides more entertaining fodder for my brain.

Still, in a mix it's probably fine, especially since it's so adjustable.
I can envisage not needing as much EQ in light of this fact.

mhschmieder wrote:... I recommend also looking at the new RP-X half-rack module from GEM. Yes, it is hardware, but in the interest of freeing up studio real estate, it accomplishes that goal pretty well, so is relevant to the discussion.

Sounds like a perfect upgrade for my P50-m.
Thanks, mhschmieder.

Searching for demo songs...

Spikey Horse · Post by **Spikey Horse** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:19 am

I'm interested that using my gigabyte-o-meter I get the following results:

Akustik piano - 11 GB (for 4 pianos)

Ivory - 40GB (for 3 pianos)
Italian Grand exp pack - 19 GB

Vienna Instruments Bosendorfer - 55 GB (single piano)

So VI clearly has the biggest sample library, compared to any other single piano - even with 'only' 7 layers, as opposed to 10 layers of Italian Grand. Could be in part due to its 5 repetition samples per key? .... I'm not sure about Ivory in that department.

Anyway I'm getting VI Bosendorfer soon

so will report back - someone mentioned the percussiveness of this piano - yes I thought that too.... I like that about it, I really like all the demos I've heard so far of it.

David Polich · Post by **David Polich** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:43 am

Monkey Man, as I mentioned before, the presets in Pianoteq are NOT good, and do not show what the app can do. Once you start messing around with the various parameters you can build a great sounding piano.

I'd agree that something that doesn't sound good out of the box isn't likely to appeal to a lot of people, especially those who don't want to wade in and program it. If you want to get into programming, then Pianoteq is a dream come true. I'm just telling it from my own experience - I have a real Yamaha baby grand Disklavier, and I was able to get close enough with Pianoteq that even on solo passages, clients thought it was the Disklavier. It's that good.

I think Ivory sounds great - otherwise I wouldn't have purchased it. I used it for quite some time. It just didn't ever "behave" like a real piano for me. And needless to say, it occupied a very large chunk of disk space which I have since been able to re-allocate to other things like - more BFD packages.

You don't need a fast hard drive with loads of extra space to run Pianoteq - it only requires a fast computer. And changing presets is instantaneous - unlike sampled pianos.

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:07 am

You're swaying me, as I respect your opinion, David.

It does good to me at this stage due to its size and price, as it's just for pop.
That adjustability's gotta go a long way in helping instruments sit well in mixes.

By the time I've got a Mac Pro and Altiverb one day, the plug will have been refined a little more, and I'll take the plunge.
Mega multi-gigabyte libraries scare me on my budget.

dix · Post by **dix** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:22 am

David Polich wrote:Monkey Man, as I mentioned before, the presets in Pianoteq are NOT good, and do not show what the app can do. Once you start messing around with the various parameters you can build a great sounding piano. ....

Care to share your custom presets David?

I too bought Pianoteq and was less than impressed - my particular peeve w it was the sustain (too much of it!). I believe modeling is the future. I'd love to jettison all these hard drives, but for now I prefer Ivory for piano.

Adjusting the Pianoteq presets had no real benefits for me. Could you post or email your preset efforts?

Thanks.

Eleventh Hour Sound · Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:18 am

Ivory made me love playing piano again... I can't say enough about it. (It reminds me of the days I would sneak into the local college's Grand Piano room and bang away! ) Yes, it needs some computer horsepower but it's worth it. In a complicated mix, I just render the Ivory track to disk and then just turn it off.

Since I like most things to sound bigger (including a longer, fuller decay) I use one of the T-Racks mastering presets on Ivory and it makes it sound Big and Huge and out of control! <Laughing>

I like the idea of the PianoTeq plug in, but at first listen the demo song I listened to sounded a little too smooth (and digital) for me. Since they're going to have a working demo of their new version next month it's certainly worth checking out.

mhschmieder · Post by **mhschmieder** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:16 pm

I think this announcement of the next version of Pianoteq answers most of Shooshie's grievances:

http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=4459

As averse as I am to programming samples, I have no qualms about spending time programming and manipulating physically modeled synths and analog, additive, and FM synthesis. But I am a mathematician

.

I'm going to try to re-download the demo (which hopefully is updated to the new version), and try their recommendations for lowering the sampling frequency to 22 kHz to see if my CPU can then handle it.

The GEM RP-X is said to cost around $600, but you'd probably also want to spring for their tri-pedals (no idea what they cost, but surely under $150). I don't think CME's would work as they appear to be MIDI-based (if they're even available, as most of their product is vaporware still).

Akoustik is a first generation NI product, and I expect it to improve vastly with the next release. After all, the sample sets are quite good, and quite varied. I AM able to get excellent results with this library, but it takes more work than I feel I should have to put into something as common as piano.

My experience with NI product is that you have to wait until the second release for anything to really mature. I hated Guitar Rig 1, yet Guitar Rig 2 is the first and only guitar modeling (whether software or hardware) that I find musical, organic, and inspiring.

David Polich · Post by **David Polich** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:38 pm

Dix wrote:

"Care to share your custom presets David?"

You can get my Disklavier preset from the "fxp corner" of their site - look on the home page, it's on the right side, near the bottom of the page, under "Visit". Click on the link and the user presets page opens - mine is the one called "Modern Bright Studio Grand". There's an audio demo of it as well. Bear in mind, it's a custom-tailored preset designed to work with the Yamaha Disklavier as a controller. If you're using something like a non-weighted controller or synth-action controller (like an M-Audio controller) you'll find the sound gets too loud and bright too quickly That is adjustable.

The new version of Pianoteq will be available April 4, as it states on their site. The current downloadable demo is the "old" version.

Dix also wrote:

"I too bought Pianoteq and was less than impressed - my particular peeve w it was the sustain (too much of it!)."

You have to adjust the piano size to get shorter sustain - be aware that piano size is measured in meters, not feet, so a 4 meter piano (default setting) is still around 12 feet long - trust me, if you shorten the piano size to 1 meter you'll hear the difference. To get more animation into the sound - push the "Unison" slider (in the "Tuning" section) over towards the right. Anything more than 1/3 to the left is unrealistic, there's just no motion in the sound. Keep the Unison setting to the right of center to emulate the natural chorusing effect of multiple strings resonating. At extreme right settings it makes a great honky-tonk piano - combine that with increasing the Quadratic Effect to get a metallic barroom piano sound.

Another tip - the presets that ship with it don't have enough fundamental. Go to the "Voicing" section and boost the first slider up - that's where your "bass" is.

To hear the effects of changing the harmonic overtones, push the remaining sliders up and down to extreme settings - you won't hear much of a difference until you do that. Then you can decide what overtones you like and bring things back down again. A lot like adjusting a graphic eq, actually. Except that, in the case of the harmonic sliders, the frequency response is dynamic according to velocity - not static like a conventional graphic EQ (whioch is also included in Pianoteq).

Since Pianoteq is not a sampled instrument, there's no room ambience per se. The included reverb is okay but not great. You'll need some reverb on the sound - I use either Waves IR-L or Wizooverb and it's just fine. The included graphic EQ on Pianoteq is pretty good - you can click anywhere on the graph to add a frequency to boost or cut. Again, though, I prefer to equalize it with one of my fave insert EQ's like Masterworks EQ or Waves Linear Phase EQ.

Look at the master volume for presets - it's usually set on the low side. Crank it up, of course it will sound "better". You know, louder is better..

I was able to get sustain that lasts exactly as long as my Disklavier's sustain lasts. It helps to have a real piano for reference, and I'm lucky because the Disklavier also sends and receives MIDI (it's a MIDI contoller as well as a real piano) so I was able to tailor the response of Pianoteq to match that of the Disklavier. If I play my Pianoteq Disklavier preset using my Motif ES6 as a controller, it's way too loud and bright, and goes to full 127 too quickly. Best way to use Pianoteq is via an 88-key weighted controller, and to adjust Pianoteq's response to your particular controller.

Sampling technology is - what, well over 25 years old now? Despite new ways of controlling how samples are triggered, and larger sample file sizes and 24-bit streaming - it's still basically triggering "photos" of instruments. It's always been a compromise. As computer power continues to increase, things like Pianoteq will become better and better sounding.

Mark, I agree about Guitar Rig 2. GR1 was unusable. Guitar Combos sucked as well. But GR 2 is awesome. I'm using it more and more.

dix · Post by **dix** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:39 pm

Wow. Thanks so much for this little tutorial David! I briefly messed around w the size and got some positive results. It's not the length of the sustain that bugs me, it's the static nature of HOW it dies off that I find unnatural - sounds almost like single cycle piano-waveforms being faded out. However, I think the solution may be in these tips you've so generously provided. I'll try the rest of these when I get a chance.

Thanks again!