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You guys might be able to convince James to ban me for saying this (again), but despite being a DP devotee, I've spent a little time with Sonar and think it has some very strong points. If it was released on a Mac, I think we'd have to check our pride and consider some of the things on offer. These are just a few that I've found particularly interesting:

*Real looping
*Real Freeze (not a bounce macro)
*Custom/savable Channel Strips
*Special pitch correction environmentwhich makes DP's look quite limited.
*A beat detection environment that actually makes sense.

This and a bunch of other really unique stuff like automatically drawing the audio passing through the Aux tracks instead of just an empty track. Of course they actually have video demos of all this stuff in action too. I'm not ready to abandon my mac and DP, but there is other good stuff out there and Motu (and us) shouldn't be so arrogant to ignore it. Some of it is quite good/interesting.

bradycline wrote:You guys might be able to convince James to ban me for saying this (again), but despite being a DP devotee, I've spent a little time with Sonar and think it has some very strong points. If it was released on a Mac, I think we'd have to check our pride and consider some of the things on offer. These are just a few that I've found particularly interesting:

*Real looping
*Real Freeze (not a bounce macro)
*Custom/savable Channel Strips
*Special pitch correction environmentwhich makes DP's look quite limited.
*A beat detection environment that actually makes sense.

This and a bunch of other really unique stuff like automatically drawing the audio passing through the Aux tracks instead of just an empty track. Of course they actually have video demos of all this stuff in action too. I'm not ready to abandon my mac and DP, but there is other good stuff out there and Motu (and us) shouldn't be so arrogant to ignore it. Some of it is quite good/interesting.

I agree. I think Sonar's a pretty good app. My friend uses it for audio editing tasks primarily. It seems very capable.

It certainly exports audio for other apps much more efficiently than DP.

I still choose DP over Sonar, as I prefer DP's MIDI editing tools, audio routing and the Mac OS. It suits my needs and work methods. But, if I were on a WinPC, I'd consider Sonar against Cubase.

BTW: My impression is that most of the posters here at UN aren't arrogant toward other DAW softwares. All the time, I see threads begging DP to appropriate some function already covered by another apps.

chrispick wrote:I agree. I think Sonar's a pretty good app. My friend uses it for audio editing tasks primarily. It seemed very capable.

I'd still choose DP over Sonar, as I prefer DP's MIDI editing tools and Mac OS. But, if I were on a WinPC, I'd consider Sonar over Cubase.

I used Sonar for years and while I think it's good on the PC (I would never use Cubase- I really dislike it) I much prefer using Mac OSX and Digital Performer. Even Logic Express 7.2 worked all right. I have even been able to use plug-in libs like Miroslav Philharmonik and MOTU Syphonic INstrument more effectively than I could on my Dell (piece of c**p). But Sonar isn't bad. I liked being able to toggle to markers in a song quickly and record from that point. I just discovered something in DP5 that works in the same manner so I'm happy. Logic's markers confused me......

bradycline wrote:You guys might be able to convince James to ban me for saying this (again)

Did this really happen as you describe it?
As CP said, it don't sound right, and as we all know, if it sounds right, it is right, so it can't be right, 'cause it don't sound right.

I agree with Chris on all points.

When faced with skepticism regarding DP, I simply say, "You get MOFO your money, honey."
Mehopes that soon we'll all be getting "even MOFO our money."

bradycline wrote:You guys might be able to convince James to ban me for saying this (again), but despite being a DP devotee, I've spent a little time with Sonar and think it has some very strong points. If it was released on a Mac, I think we'd have to check our pride and consider some of the things on offer. These are just a few that I've found particularly interesting:

*Real looping
*Real Freeze (not a bounce macro)
*Custom/savable Channel Strips
*Special pitch correction environmentwhich makes DP's look quite limited.
*A beat detection environment that actually makes sense.

This and a bunch of other really unique stuff like automatically drawing the audio passing through the Aux tracks instead of just an empty track. Of course they actually have video demos of all this stuff in action too. I'm not ready to abandon my mac and DP, but there is other good stuff out there and Motu (and us) shouldn't be so arrogant to ignore it. Some of it is quite good/interesting.

What you describe sounds pretty good. I've never heard anything bad about Sonar. And for "real loops," I've heard nothing but the greatest about Acid. I even downloaded a demo of that once, I think. Or maybe it was a manual. I don't remember. Point being, I think it's good to have some other apps around. I just find myself wanting to spend my money on things I actually need, rather than just want to try. If I have a period of excess ahead, you can be sure that I'll try some of these things that have been accumulating on the list. Meanwhile I'll petition MOTU to think about upgrading their pitch, beat, and conversion environments to become 2nd to none. It would be nice to do those things better. Still, I have a hard time thinking that DP could ever compete with Melodyne on the pitch correction front, and I really wonder if it should try. Melodyne is pretty much a one-trick pony, but what a trick! When you have dedicated apps like that out there, it seems kind of wasteful to expand a single app into bloatware that tries to do it all... and fails.

So, I question: does Sonar handle MIDI like DP? Is it as customizable and quick to use as DP? Can it utilize the equivalent of Chunks or other "building block" approaches with drag-and-drop? How about the ability to see all your MIDI tracks in one edit window simultaneously without getting them confused? Where do you perceive its weaknesses are?

Shooshie

monkey man wrote:

bradycline wrote:You guys might be able to convince James to ban me for saying this (again)

Did this really happen as you describe it?

The "again" referred to mentioning Sonar's good points, not getting banned, which has never happened.

I've gotten a lot of MOFO my MOTU too, thanks in big part to the kind folks here.

I haven't spent much time with Sonar's MIDI, partly because it seemed weak compared to Sonar. Some other things about Sonar also really bug me, but a few weeks ago some posters were considering Motu licensing other tech to help "keep up" with regular improvements. For better or worse this seems the strategy Cakewalk has taken. (Sonar version 6 after 10 or so Cakewalks) - maybe not perfect but Elec Mus gave it highest honors so there are some out there that think it good strategy. DP used to own "best DAW" category. . .

WHen did MOFO come out?

I'm still on 5.11.

Shooshie wrote:When you have dedicated apps like that out there, it seems kind of wasteful to expand a single app into bloatware that tries to do it all... and fails.

But it would definitely save me the 500-700$ that I would have to get to buy an extra app.
I'm not so hype about having everything in the same box. (like having a lot of ok VIs) because there's already a lot of things out there and we are all using our own stuff. We all like our Altiverb, BFD, Vienna, Mach5 or whatever you want.

BUT when it comes to editing, I would definitely keep everything inside DP instead of having to export somewhere else, edit and then bring it back to my DAW for further editing... To me, adding editing tools is not expanding a single app into something else. I see it more as making it more complete. If MOTU got the Pitch/timestretching out, then it should be as good as the DAW they've put it in...(DP)

My humble opinion

Yep... I love DP too. Helped friends on PCs. Too many configuration issues...

and I keep sticking my nose into Logic. I have fun with the loops but not the interface...

I'll find things that I wish I had in DP. But then there are a whole lot of things I'm happy not to have in DP.

DP works and works they way I need it to. I'm soooooo happy!!!

I'm also new to DP5 (and the Mac), coming from a PC/Sonar 5 DAW. To begin with, I'm not making the change because of any dissatisfaction with Sonar - I've used it and its predecessors for over 15 years, it gives me professional-grade results, and I know how to get it to do what I want it to, fairly easily. If Cakewalk were to announce Sonar for an Intel Mac at this year's NAMM, I'd grab it in a New York millisecond. (Mind you, given how closely they're tied in with Microsoft technologies, they're not likely to.) My issue is with Microsoft, but that's another well-known story.

All that said, why did I choose DP? A combination of price, features, and most important, familiarity. Of the four main Mac DAWs, it is, frankly, the one closest to Sonar in look and feel, which means that it will take me the least amount of time to get back up to speed on projects. After the head-banging is finished, I'm sure I'll appreciate DP's many strengths; in the meanwhile, it's a definite challenge, not to mention PITA, learning how to do familiar tasks in a different way.

And that, I believe, is the case for most of us here. It's not that any single DAW is universally and inherently superior: the market is competitive enough that any truly deficient DAW would fall out of favor and disappear. There will always be some feature differences that make a difference; I looked at, and discarded Cubase 4 due to (among other things) the lack of suitable vocal pitch correction. There are (IMHO) deficiencies in DP as well, such as the lack of a decent GM instrument, which is really useful for quick draft arrangements. But there are enough similarities to make it worth my effort to make the change.

I look forward to as many successful years with DP as I've had with Sonar, without needing to disparage it.

-- Mark

Welcome, Mark, and best of luck with the learning curve of least head-banging. When you're past the basics, check out the Tips Sheet in the "sticky" threads up at the top of the DP forum. The collective wisdom of UnicorNation has yielded a lot of great tips that will get you working faster and more efficiently than years of doing it on your own.

Shooshie

I'm not a Sonar user, but I do like what I saw in this video showing it being used to comp a vocal:

http://www.gearwire.com/media/cakewalk- ... diting.mov

I'd like to see DP's Take interface improved (Take folders, like Track folders). I'd also like to be able to highlight different sections of Takes and then have DP automatically bounce that into a comp in one step, similar to what you see at the end of this video.

DP's Take interface is great when you're tracking, but not so great when it comes time to sort through all those takes and create a comp. Expandable Takes folders and Comp From Selections In Multiple Takes... These two features are at the of my DP 6 wish list.

Babz

AscendingMusic wrote:. There are (IMHO) deficiencies in DP as well, such as the lack of a decent GM instrument, which is really useful for quick draft arrangements.

What, the Apple DLS GM instrument not good enough for you?

bradycline wrote:You guys might be able to convince James to ban me for saying this (again),

That's silly. I don't ban people for that sort of thing.

bradycline wrote:

monkey man wrote:

bradycline wrote:You guys might be able to convince James to ban me for saying this (again)

Did this really happen as you describe it?

The "again" referred to mentioning Sonar's good points, not getting banned, which has never happened.

LOL... sometimes even extraneous punctuation can be our friend:

"You might be able to convince James to ban me, for saying this again."