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This conversation may be moot in awhile- Avid, which owns Digidesign has bought Sibelius, so I wouldn't be surprised to see a Sibelius-style notation editor built within ProTools in the near future. If and when that happens, look out! I know several film composers who would jump over to ProTools full time if they got their notation plug-in together.

Franky, this is true. If Sibelius' features are added to PT, then you're right that a lot of guys would take the notion of defecting very seriously.

But those are also the guys who have $20k ready to go to make such a switch. Granted, a lot of guys already have a PT/Digidesign setup of some sort, but in terms of DP users it may not be so easy to swap out major hardware. For those who already have PT, any notation improvements would simply be a matter of getting their software updated.

I don't know if most DP users feel it's worth switching over to PT/Digide$ign hardware and software just because of what QS lacks.

Then, there is the question of how much time it really saves. It only takes me about 1-2 hours to get a score of about 300 measures out of DP into Finale. With that in mind, all the other edits (articulations, etc) which would still be required in a PT/Sibelius setup would be more or less the same as it would with any other notation app.

At that point, it boils down to how much more efficiently Sibelius is, but that brings me back to square 1: I could just buy Sibelius unless the 2 hours I'd save are worth the price of doing the same thing in PT.

It's just a little trickier for DP users than it might be for PT users. But I gotta say-- saving these files as SMF has saved my tail so many times when either Finale or DP decide they are not going to work. Being able to open the same SMF in either had been a lifesaver....

Does that make any sense?

With all that said, I am looking into the benefits of a PT- HD|1 starter kit, but I'm still weighing cost vs value.

I really don't see digidesign adding the complete sibelius package into Pro Tools. I think the most we'll see is maybe a stripped down notation feature based on Sibelius which would leave PT users right where we are now with QuickScribe in DP. - And they'd have to improve the MIDI sequencing by a mile to make me even consider switching.

Possibly they might add some sort of Re-Wire-type software connection between the two but I doubt it considering how they haven't managed to make Avid and Pro Tools particularly compatible.

Realistically I think we're stuck with the SMF export-import situation for quite a while to come.

Frodo wrote:... This may be true for most DAW users, but it only serves as another example where the needs of advanced users, namely composers as opposed to engineers, get the short end of the stick.

I'm currently using Finale 2004 (which doesn't work on the new Intel Macs), so I'm forced to either upgrade or go with some other software.

So, given that there are no GOOD alternatives to QS which work within DP, if you were starting from scratch, what combination of software would you choose? (assuming DP is your DAW software)

Phil

For serious composition I vote Sibelius and DP. If you just want to write a quick chart for small ensemble jazz or quartet Print Music will work.

Phil-

Finale 2004 was a bit of a nightmare for me, but it was tons better than 2003. I still love 2002b and use it on my old G3 laptop. 2006 wasn't too bad-- I skipped 2005 altogether. However, I just started using 2007 and it feels to be the closest in sanity to 2002b plus all the latest features.

DP does seem to be the easiest solution for MIDI note entry. While I have a lot of emotional energy invested in Finale, I would agree that Sibelius would be well worth the time not only to learn the app fluently, but to unlearn Finale, which is always a problem with swapping apps (for me, anyway).

dosuna11 wrote:For serious composition I vote Sibelius and DP.

Same here. Although I do concede that Finale is also very good. I was amazed at how quickly and efficiently I could work when I ditched Cubase and got Sibelius. It also 'feels' great to work on, which does become important when you've been going for 18 hours straight for the third day in a row.

A couple of things that would make Quick Scribe, and the related Notation editor, more usable:

1) In the Notation editor, please allow me to choose the clef I want to use for each track. Why should I read a low viola part in bass clef?

2) Also, why not allow ledger lines in the Notation window? It completely clutters the note display to have a full grand staff displayed just because one note goes below middle C.

3) BONUS POINTS: Give me assignable articulation values. Not all stacattos and accents are of equal.

4) BONUS POINTS: Give me breath markings that create a space between phrases, without having to trim back note lengths.

My interest is not so much for preparing a score to print, rather being edit MIDI while looking at the score.

Back to work now...

HGM

Frodo wrote:Phil-

Finale 2004 was a bit of a nightmare for me, but it was tons better than 2003. I still love 2002b and use it on my old G3 laptop. 2006 wasn't too bad-- I skipped 2005 altogether. However, I just started using 2007 and it feels to be the closest in sanity to 2002b plus all the latest features.

DP does seem to be the easiest solution for MIDI note entry. While I have a lot of emotional energy invested in Finale, I would agree that Sibelius would be well worth the time not only to learn the app fluently, but to unlearn Finale, which is always a problem with swapping apps (for me, anyway).

Yes, I am really enjoying Finale 2007 as well. I tried Sibelius, and have peers who swear by it. However, once I really knew my way around Finale, the incentive to become just as proficient on Sibelius was not that great. In the end, they are the 2 best notation programs I believe.

As for MIDI entry, I built myself a 'footpedal' with an old apple keyboard, some wood and some springs. Now I am able to enter 2-handed piano chords in Finale with step editing. It's a real time save for MIDI entry because I can play with the voicing before I commit.

As for Sibelius becoming a plug-in for ProTools - I could be swayed, but frankly I have never like the 'look' of protools. Perhaps I am just too used to DP...

HG

hgmoses wrote:Yes, I am really enjoying Finale 2007 as well. I tried Sibelius, and have peers who swear by it. However, once I really knew my way around Finale, the incentive to become just as proficient on Sibelius was not that great. In the end, they are the 2 best notation programs I believe.

As for MIDI entry, I built myself a 'footpedal' with an old apple keyboard, some wood and some springs. Now I am able to enter 2-handed piano chords in Finale with step editing. It's a real time save for MIDI entry because I can play with the voicing before I commit.

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I think for now I'm going to stick with Finale and get the upgrade. I teach part time at a small music school and most of the work I do is for the students (ensemble horn charts, transposing parts, re-arranging stuff, etc.), but the head honcho at the school wants all charts to look as professional as possible - and I agree with her. I have on occasion done some stuff for publication but it's rare. But more recently I've been getting into VIs in the studio, and that's my interest in combining Finale with DP.

Oh yeah, and I'd love to see that footpedal rig. Sounds great!

Phil

One word about Finale 2007-- I was having a little trouble with entering forced accidentals with '*' or 'P' in Speedy Note Entry. I haven't sorted out quite yet what the new rules (if any) are for when Finale allows for this or not. Previously, I could force accidentals to appear anywhere, but I suspect this is a glitch.

In fact, I'd really rather think of it as a bug instead of it being the brain child of someone who decided to change the rules of notation.

Thanks for the warning Frodo. I use that feature a lot, especially with young students.

Phil

I had a deadline of Sunday to accept or reject a promotional discount on Notion, and had to scrounge up some things for eBay to make it happen .

I spent all day Saturday painfully doing a score that I knew would be thrown out (since demos don't let you do file saves), in Notion, Finale, Sibelius, and Encore. I decided to stick to a simple SATB choral piece just to focus on the basic productivity and workflow.

It took me an hour in Notion, with absolutely no annoyances whatsoever and a very smooth continuity with no interruptions to my normal train of thought. Not as fun with a mouse and keyboard shorcuts as with a pen, but slightly faster than by hand on paper, and more satisfying in the results.

Finale was a disaster -- I never completed the score. I know the new part extraction in 2007 sounds good (though I didn't create an account with them to be eligible, so used 2006 for my demo), but I still just can't get my head around that product.

Sibelius took me 90 minutes, and there were still placement errors when I was "done" and I didn't have the energy or motivation to correct them, as my decision had been made. Even after learning the shortcuts, the flow (and the choice of shortcuts) did not seem as natural to me as Notion.

Encore turned out not to have enough functionality to accomplish what I was trying to do, but I do find it a fairly pleasant interface otherwise.

I also reinvestigated Mosaic, and found that the copies being sold by Sweetwater and 8th Street Music (Philadelphia) are OS 9 only and that MOTU apparantly did not port it to OS X. Although I hate the look and feel of OS 9 in general, the hidden product sheet on Mosaic at the MOTU site (it isn't listed, so you have to know the URL to find it), is enticing. This might have been the best notation program ever, in terms of ease of use.

Another winning point for Notion of course is its lack of dependence on MIDI, which frees them up for 1000 steps of resolution on velocity and other parameters vs. the typical 128 steps of MIDI. This is also a "bad" thing though, in terms of imperfect importation, exportation, and integration with legacy files and other products for a comprehensive workflow, but I am sure they will continue to improve.

The rendering is simply unsurpassed. Notion analyses your score, and triggers appropriate samples. This results in more realistic rendering than sample-switching or having to divide up your part based on attack vs. bowing vs. release, etc. This is one of the reasons that Notion is more composer-friendly than the more education-and-publication oriented Sibelius and Finale.

MHS-- Thanks for the report!

I think what a lot of users experience, myself included, is the years and expense invested in apps like Finale and Sibelius--- to learn the features well enough to get the job done. So many pros used Finale, for example, and an increasing number of pros are adding or switching to Sibelius that compatibility is a concern.

Also, some distinction is worth making between staying in one's comfort zone (the devil you know being better than the devil you don't know) from the idea of starting over to give another app a fair chance.

Given that, not every app is for everyone. However, I'm always looking for better ways of accomplishing various tasks that are otherwise a PITA and am really happy to hear about what Notion can do. I've had a demo version of Sibelius f or a while and have put off buying it, but what I've seen of Notion did peak my interest.

I'm not interested in finding the best sounds, because I have VIs like Vienna Instruments to focus strictly on audio without the distraction of notation details when really good audio is needed. It's less important what a notation app *sounds* like for me than what it looks like and how quickly it gets to the level of presentability. If Notion has great sounds, all the better. For me, I'd like to improve my workflow: to spend less time on notation and more time on composition.

Currently, notation time equals or exceeds composition time. Not good.

From what I've seen so far, and from your report, Notion may become my back-up app for a start. As long as I don't have to share files, it could be my go to app eventually.

If you have the money, it might pay to have both apps. I can't see having both Finale and Sibelius, as they have more similarities than differences. But having either of those and adding Notion, might give you a quick sketchpad that you can then use to import into your preferred "finishing app" that you have invested so many years in learning.

Don't forget about MusicXML! I have no experience to verify this, but apparantly it has tremendously improved if not solved most (but probably not all) of the inter-app transport issues. So a MusicXML score should open up in any of those three apps and look about the same.