FOCUSRITE LIQUID MIX--very cool

Dubnick · Post by **Dubnick** » Wed May 31, 2006 7:37 am

I agree but you never know - they are advertising it as being Pro Tools compatible with VST to RTAS wrapper, and there's no real ADC there - you'd have to use time adjuster, which would be a gigantic pain. Also, there are few AU compressors out there that don't seem to play well with the DP ADC, like the T-Racks stuff (in that case, I don't think latency is accurately reported - I wish IK would fix that but it seems like they never do updates.

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Wed May 31, 2006 2:00 pm

Delay compensation is up to the application itself which in this case would be DP. And they are "emulations", not models!

THIS IS NOT MODLELING, it is convolution! There, I feel better! hehe

Back to Delay Compensation, I'll report this back to Focusrite. In fact, if anyone has feedback on what they would like to see feel free to contact me directly and I'll forward it on. This is the reason I posted this here is to better interface with the users, if it doesn't work right it's not fun for anyone. Oh the $699 might be old, I was just told $799 a few weeks back but I don't remember if that was street price or list? Hmmm

swiftness · Post by **swiftness** » Wed May 31, 2006 2:05 pm

It's showing up as $799 on the sweetwater site and music123.com.

I think it is safe to assume that Focusrite will do its part to make sure ADC is functional. The rest is up to the host. Any external DSP is practically unusable in an application that doesn't have ADC. Digi from some reason still hasn't given LE ADC, even though I think every other DAW app on the market has it.

billf · Post by **billf** » Wed May 31, 2006 2:20 pm

BradLyons wrote:THIS IS NOT MODLELING, it is convolution!

Dubnick · Post by **Dubnick** » Wed May 31, 2006 2:26 pm

BradLyons wrote:Delay compensation is up to the application itself which in this case would be DP.

Yes, but, and I may be mistaken here, but I was under the impression that all audio sequencers with ADC are reliant on an accurate reporting of the total incurred delay by each plug in. Also, I stand corrected, but do the 1176 and LA-2A "emulations" sound good and/or accurate? How do they compare to the UAD stuff? That was the main question I was trying to ask. One more thing - any word on a street date for the TC Electronic Konnekt interface?

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Wed May 31, 2006 4:00 pm

Hmmmmm quick survey here.... I am going to see if I can get one of my top Focusrite guys to jump in here to provide more up-to-date information, that is if it's okay with ya'll here?

Dubnick · Post by **Dubnick** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:13 pm

That would be great! Thanks for keeping us informed.

newrigel · Post by **newrigel** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:20 pm

YES... GOD HAS SPOKEN!

rainmaker · Post by **rainmaker** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:27 pm

I've been watching the LM for some time now. I am a automatic buyer as long as it has two things... (and this goes for two of my buddies as well who will buy it as soon as it's out on the market as long as these two features are included)

1) It must work seamlessly with DP's ADC. That's a given. If it doesn't, the box becomes completely useless for my needs. There's no way I'm going to futz around with that mess. So I'm assuming this one will be included by Focusrite.

2) It's got to have automatic track follow from the DAW. Which means... When I select a channel/track in DP or other DAW, the LM Controller will automatically follow my selection and show that particular tracks' settings. So as I'm mixing and want to edit a channel's compressor, when I select the track in DP, the LM controller switches to that tracks' plugins automatically. If it doesn't work this way, it will be a major pain trying to figure out what track you're working on at any given time. The DAW would show one track and the LM would be showing another. And since DP has no undo when you make changes to plugins, I can see this as being a big mess when you accidentaly change a compressor/eq setting on the wrong track, realizing that you adjusted the wrong one, then not being able to get it back to where it was... major frustration and time waster.

Anyways, I hope the Focusrite guys are listening. These features are a must for this box. It would make the whole thing a no-brainer purchase. The major disadvantage for me coming from analog gear was having no interface that I can quickly adjust plugins with such as eq/compression. The LM is the first option to have a built-in dedicated control surface for the plugs so you can adjust with your hands (no mouse please). What a great idea. Now let's just hope they didn't cripple it by not going all the way with the daw implementation.

Bottom Line:
I do not want a piece of gear that I have to do a ton of mousing around to use. If it's got a control surface, then it should control the plugins with ease and grace. Please don't make me click the mouse a bunch of times every time I want to adjust a particular setting. At that point, I might as well just adjust the plugins on the screen with the mouse. I mean, why make a dedicated control surface if you're going to make me use the mouse every time I want to use it.

Well, here's hoping... otherwise, I'll wait for something else that works more seamlessly down the road.

Thanks,
Rainmaker

Splinter · Post by **Splinter** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:34 am

rainmaker wrote:When I select a channel/track in DP or other DAW, the LM Controller will automatically follow my selection and show that particular tracks' settings. So as I'm mixing and want to edit a channel's compressor, when I select the track in DP, the LM controller switches to that tracks' plugins automatically. If it doesn't work this way, it will be a major pain trying to figure out what track you're working on at any given time.

I can guarantee you it woun't work this way. Not even DP's plugs do this. And what do you mean by "select a track?" What if you select multiple tracks? How is LM supposed to "know" which track you want. Now if you set up DP to have a LM channel on insert A on each track then open one instance of the LM plug you can select the track there and LM will probably follow that, but otherwise you will most likely be disappointed.

swiftness · Post by **swiftness** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:18 am

What if you open more than one instance of LM on a single track? I know that's not practical, but what if?

My completely uneducated guess would be that the LM controller will follow what ever plug-in window you have opened, rather than just being able to click on a track name in the Mixer or Tracks Overview window.

rainmaker · Post by **rainmaker** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 11:42 am

My main point in all of this is... when will some company finally give us back some of the very simple intuitive opearation of tools that were made decades ago. The analog mixer was developed over years of use and trial testing. It evolved into a very fluid and intuitive way of working. Along came computer recording and a ton of power and flexibility. That's all great, but we lost the very basic intuitive operation that was so long in the making. Think about an analog board and that you could just go to the channel you wanted to adjust and there were all the parameters for that channel ready to be adjusted with fingers and knobs.

Computer recording is great but they took away this great user interface and gave us a mouse which is a horrible interface for making music. Sure, you can get it done, but it sucks if you've ever had the pleasure of working on a well-laid out analog console with eq/compression/etc on every channel. And as far as all the control surfaces... there hasn't been a solution yet that has addressed plug-in control, except the Mackie C4.

Now enter the Liquid Mix. Finally a company that was smart enough to give us real knobs to adjust real tools with real hands. That's great! But why make us all continue to have to mouse around to use that great interface? Are you saying they just can't make the technology work? If so, that's a ridiculous statement. The technology to make this work fluidly is all there. Are you kidding, look at the incredible power of computer recording. Of course they can make this "Auto-follow" work.

Logic already has such technology in place with their built in plug-ins on screen and with the Mackie C4. If you've ever seen the Mackie C4 work with Logic, you would realize how intuitive it is. When you select a track in Logic, the C4 automatically follows and shows you all eq/compression/plug-in settings for the channel you have selected. There is no mousing around, etc... This is how it should work. This is as close to working with an analog console as you can get so far with DAW recording. Only problem is, the C4 is not compatible with DP. I have had a C4 sitting in the box for almost a year waiting for the promised DP compatibility to no avail. I'm at the point now where I am probably going to sell it. It doesn't appear that Motu/Mackie is going to get it done.

Someone made the point, "What if you select multiple tracks?" Well, when selecting multiple tracks, usually you are editing or in some other mode of work. When you are trying to change an eq or compressor setting, you aren't selecting multiple tracks at a time... you are looking for one particular track in that instance. So this is not an issue for the LM.

So, pertaining to the Liquid Mix. They have the opportunity to make it work. Will they? Who knows, we'll see! I surely hope they do or I will wait for something else. I'm not asking for anything outrageous here. I'm simply asking for "technology" that was introduced over thirty years ago. We're talking about a small amount of code here to make this work. That small amount of code makes the difference between a device that is truly intuitive and a pleasure to work with, or a device that is un-intuitive and frustrating that I won't purchase. If they can't give us that with today's computer power and technology... forget about it!

Rainmaker

Splinter · Post by **Splinter** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 1:19 pm

Rainmaker:

I'm not suggesting your idea is bad, I just don't think it is realistic. How is LM supposed to know which track you want? You say you shouldn't have to mouse around, but how do you propose selecting a track? Is it that much more complicated to double click the plug in insert than single clicking a track name? I don't get it.

Regarding your comments on analog consoles, having "grown up" on analog, I have to say your assessment of workflow is incorrect. To my recollection, most of the time I wanted to adjust gates, compressors, reverbs or any other effects I was searching for cables, patching, twisting, turning, bending, and rolling all over the Control Room, just to make a simple tweak on one channel, then back to the sweet spot, then back to tweak, then back to the sweet spot... None of those processors magically appeared in front of me with a simple snap of my fingers (click) like they do on a DAW. Sure there are certain advantages to tactile controls, but the power and flexibility you gain from a DAW would be near impossible to replicate in physical controls. With every plug being different having dozens of parameters, you can spend way more time shuffling around on a control surface trying to get to the right window and tweaking things than just reaching for the mouse and selecting it on the screen.

You mention the C4. I haven't used it, but I have a Mackie Control which gives you access to your plug in parameters. It's a total pain. Half the time you have no idea what the cryptic abbreviation or the parameter is on the scribble strip because of the limit number of characters that will fit over the knob. You can never see all the parameters at once. You don't get meters or visual feedback. Do you see where I'm going? Trying to take the virtual and homogenize it to fit the confines of the physical is what's ridiculous. The only thing my control surface gets used for is faders.

Back to the LM. To me the real question isn't whether the control surface will follow a selected track in DP, but whether the control surface will give you access to the track you want to see, select or instantiate a LM plug into, and control. The LM control ought to display the track name and allow you to scroll through them to do the tasks listed above WITHOUT having to select anything in the DAW. Now that's intuitive. But again, I doubt I'll ever touch the controller for the LM. It's still too limited and I don't want to have to chase down another "box". The display is too small to see everythng on the screen at once, so you're always "paging" and scrolling... no thanks. Give me my mouse (or in my case a trackball) and a gigantic screen and spare me the dongle. (In this case, though, I'm grateful for the additional convolution processing power.)

mcevilley · Post by **mcevilley** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:12 am

Does anyone have this thing yet? If so, what do you think?

newrigel · Post by **newrigel** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:23 pm

BradLyons wrote: THIS IS NOT MODLELING, it is convolution!

Well not exactly.... it's "DYNAMIC CONVOLUTION" which can sample time variants. Dynamic Convolution utilizes vast processing power to sample the effect of a classic processor on a series of audio pulses, at many different gain settings and frequencies... Altiverb is a "Convolution" plug-in... Sintefex has worked for a long period with Focusrite to mold Sintefex's patented Dynamic Convolution (tm) Technology into an affordable package for the modern recording industry... This is actually old technology. But it's nice to see it really coming down in price!