Convinced Pitch automation unreliable in real time

[Rush909]

I agree with toodamnhip... Dp's pitch is very unreliable... all I have to do is select a pitch segment then click option-Space to audition the segment... 3 out of 10 times it plays a segment I pitch corrected back at the original unedited pitch... I don't even know how people are actually using it to tune entire segments of vocals... I have gotten really fast at melodyne and that program is 100%... when you click on a pitch seqment it plays exact EVERY SINGLE TIME... I can tune an entire vocal performance in minutes while it would surly take me hours in DP... then again I am not sure how much we can expect from once software program... it does so many other things right...

r.

[dosuna11]

Please check out my thread in pitch automation

[teesav]

Being quite addicted to the new DP real time pitch automation, I still have certian reservations about it..but it is so damn convenient..isn;t it?..

It could surely SOUND better, it leaves artifacts way too easy compared to Antares and Melodine...

But it is great for convenience when used in a full mix..so I use it...

But I have found one major problem that I wanted to chime in on to see if the rest of you have notice this...

It just plains fails to correct pitch at times!

The more robust your file and processor load, the more this problem occurs..

Get a note right, then, later, it goes by..and it;s pitchy again..then, play it again and it is NOT pitchy..

It's like the real time pitching goes on and off depending on processor load.

Thus, one of the main conveniences , that being real time ability to see your pitch corrections and change your mind later, becomes compromised, as you have to merge the soundbites for RELIABLE , CONSISTENT pitch correction...

I still keep things real time until the last possible moment so that I may make changes, but I have found the need to merge ALL corrected files when time to lay down the mix for maximum consistency in correction function.

Anyone else noticed the pitching to be a bit flakey?

David

I'm really surprised to hear all this. I find DP pitch correction to be state of the art. I used Autotune in graphical mode for years, and regard myself as an expert in it. I haven't used graphical mode since the day I first used DP pitch automation. I have zero artifacts, and the control over pitch in general and vibrato in particular is light years ahead of Autotune. I would suggest it's your technique. You have to really develop the skill to do this really right, but once you do, the program will actually let you do it, and let you get away with it too. And the ability to fix wayward vibrato manually is fantastic. Autotune would just massacre that sort of thing. I still use AT for non-crital stuff in AUTO mode, which of course doesn't always work well enough, but when it does, it's earned it's keep.

Truth be told, I more or less switched to PTHD many months ago, and now only use DP to work on old projects, AND to pitch correct PT projects. Really. You think Autotune is bad in DP? You can't believe what a horror show it is in Pro Tools. For openers, AT in PT doesn't receive timing information from the application, so there's no synchronization. So you are forced to do a phrase at a time, and then print as you go. Plus, you can't see the playback wiper running in the AT window, so you have no "realtime" clue what is going on in the AT window. And on top of all that, are the barely acceptable results. Even with flying the track into DP, I can do the same vocal in a fraction of the time, and it comes out way better.

For what it's worth, when I work I hear no artifacts (unless I have made a move which simply doesn't work well). No audio degradation. No timing issues (AT has some noticeable and INCONSISTENT delays happening). And once I make the moves, they do not change. Not sure why you are having this problem...

How cool that a sequencer company beat Antares at their own game?

I do have also have pro tools HD-4 at my other studio..and have used Antares on many an album, and done the same in DP...

the problem I refer to in hee by the way, is native, without pro tools..

My technique is really really good....

I have developed tons of highly precise techniques in DP's tune such a micro zooming the smallest phrase segments without touching the rest..kepping the vibrato or changing the vibrato, tuning only the tops of vobratos...etc..

I am known for being able to tune vocs without interfering with the performance in any way whatsoever...
I assure you..I am really reall y really skilled...

All of what I said about DP stands...

If you make more than a minor move and even on some minor moves, the audio degrades... a little or a lot..and sometimes not at all, depending on the material...I have a great comp, fully tuned up...G5 2.5 etc..

I cannot convince you how skilled I am but please, no more about my technique..

If you hear no artifacts..I could now doubt your ears if I wanted to return the favor..lol..
But let's just be happy for you that you don;t have any and consider you don;t have artifacts and I do...

Dave

I've been meaning to post something about this but I've been busy working. Now that NAMM is coming up, it's time to say something. I'm a producer/composer/intrumentalist (woodwinds are my specialty).

I'm using DP 5.11 with a G5 dual 2.0, UAD-1 card and the Traveler.

I'm very happy with DP, always have been since I started using it back in 1988. However, the new pitch correction and Transpose in Digital Performer are not usable by high-level instrumentalists with excellent pitch and tone on their instrument.

I find that the pitch automation and Transpose change the tone and character of the instrument, which is totally unacceptable. It is adding artifacts to the sound. Antaries does not leave artifacts when used correctly. This problem makes DP5's tuning functions unusable in a professional environment.

I hope we can correct this at NAMM 2007 because I'm a big fan of DP5 and want it to be the best that it can be.


Happy New Year to all,
Tom

[teesav]

I agree with toodamnhip... Dp's pitch is very unreliable... all I have to do is select a pitch segment then click option-Space to audition the segment... 3 out of 10 times it plays a segment I pitch corrected back at the original unedited pitch... I don't even know how people are actually using it to tune entire segments of vocals... I have gotten really fast at melodyne and that program is 100%... when you click on a pitch seqment it plays exact EVERY SINGLE TIME... I can tune an entire vocal performance in minutes while it would surly take me hours in DP... then again I am not sure how much we can expect from once software program... it does so many other things right...

r.

We can expect it to work correctly if the company says it works. Of course, that means on a professional level. If it just works for certain things, then tell us that. I too still love DP, it is a great program.

[dosuna11]

How far are you transposing the sample?

[teesav]

How far are you transposing the sample?

I can't speak for the others but in my case not more than 10 or 15 cents either way.

[Shooshie]

Wow. DP usually isn't so bad for 10 or 15 cents. But I think Melodyne is the best choice for heavy-duty pitch work. I don't own it, but I'm going to get it. The demos on their website convinced me. BTW, I'm also a woodwinds guy (went to North Texas a ways back) who originally got into this Mac/MOTU/MIDI stuff in 1984, for arranging, printing scores, and for performing with MIDI "orchestra." Boy... was I ever ahead of the curve. Been waiting 20 years for the state of the art to catch up with my original ambitions! Now it's getting really close. DP is a great platform for what we do. I've been through two Yamaha WX-7's, and am now well into a WX-5.

I probably won't make it to NAMM, but I hope those of you who DO make it will share their pictures and stories with us.

Good to meet you, Tom!

Shooshie

[teesav]

Wow. DP usually isn't so bad for 10 or 15 cents. But I think Melodyne is the best choice for heavy-duty pitch work. I don't own it, but I'm going to get it. The demos on their website convinced me. BTW, I'm also a woodwinds guy (went to North Texas a ways back) who originally got into this Mac/MOTU/MIDI stuff in 1984, for arranging, printing scores, and for performing with MIDI "orchestra." Boy... was I ever ahead of the curve. Been waiting 20 years for the state of the art to catch up with my original ambitions! Now it's getting really close. DP is a great platform for what we do. I've been through two Yamaha WX-7's, and am now well into a WX-5.

I probably won't make it to NAMM, but I hope those of you who DO make it will share their pictures and stories with us.

Good to meet you, Tom!

Shooshie

Hi Shooshie!

Sounds like we co-exist in a parallel Universe. I've also heard great reports about Melodyne and probably need to get it. I'm right there with your thinking about the MOTU/Mac platform early on. I too am an arranger and of course I felt the same way you did when the Mac came out in the mid 80's. It was "Hey, I can hear my whole arrangement and print it out right from the computer". Man, have we come a long way since then. I hate to admit it but when I first started doing sessions in LA, it was 8-track analogue. So, I saw the invention and demise of 24 track analogue recording. I know it's still out there but let's face it, it's a digital world now. I'll be at NAMM. I'm performing with Steve Ferrone on behalf of Sabian cymbals and I'll be over at the Korg booth since I have "family" ties with them. I may go over and play some bebop with the saxophonist that show up in the woodwind section at NAMM.

Have a great 2007!

Best,
Tom

[toodamnhip]

Wow. DP usually isn't so bad for 10 or 15 cents. But I think Melodyne is the best choice for heavy-duty pitch work. I don't own it, but I'm going to get it. The demos on their website convinced me. BTW, I'm also a woodwinds guy (went to North Texas a ways back) who originally got into this Mac/MOTU/MIDI stuff in 1984, for arranging, printing scores, and for performing with MIDI "orchestra." Boy... was I ever ahead of the curve. Been waiting 20 years for the state of the art to catch up with my original ambitions! Now it's getting really close. DP is a great platform for what we do. I've been through two Yamaha WX-7's, and am now well into a WX-5.

I probably won't make it to NAMM, but I hope those of you who DO make it will share their pictures and stories with us.

Good to meet you, Tom!

Shooshie

Hey Shoosh,
I used to play here in LA with a trombonist named Bill Yeager..He went to north texas state..know him?

Dave

[toodamnhip]

Wow. DP usually isn't so bad for 10 or 15 cents. But I think Melodyne is the best choice for heavy-duty pitch work. I don't own it, but I'm going to get it. The demos on their website convinced me. BTW, I'm also a woodwinds guy (went to North Texas a ways back) who originally got into this Mac/MOTU/MIDI stuff in 1984, for arranging, printing scores, and for performing with MIDI "orchestra." Boy... was I ever ahead of the curve. Been waiting 20 years for the state of the art to catch up with my original ambitions! Now it's getting really close. DP is a great platform for what we do. I've been through two Yamaha WX-7's, and am now well into a WX-5.

I probably won't make it to NAMM, but I hope those of you who DO make it will share their pictures and stories with us.

Good to meet you, Tom!

Shooshie

Hi Shooshie!

Sounds like we co-exist in a parallel Universe. I've also heard great reports about Melodyne and probably need to get it. I'm right there with your thinking about the MOTU/Mac platform early on. I too am an arranger and of course I felt the same way you did when the Mac came out in the mid 80's. It was "Hey, I can hear my whole arrangement and print it out right from the computer". Man, have we come a long way since then. I hate to admit it but when I first started doing sessions in LA, it was 8-track analogue. So, I saw the invention and demise of 24 track analogue recording. I know it's still out there but let's face it, it's a digital world now. I'll be at NAMM. I'm performing with Steve Ferrone on behalf of Sabian cymbals and I'll be over at the Korg booth since I have "family" ties with them. I may go over and play some bebop with the saxophonist that show up in the woodwind section at NAMM.

Have a great 2007!

Best,
Tom

Dude, is there really a Bop session there? I am always producing now, but miss playing Bop. I used to play with Joe Pass, Ted Greene and CHarlie Shoemake. Think I could get in on that Bop session? I play guitar so I'd need an amp...
Dave

[dosuna11]

Wow! That's not much. I will say that my hardware configurations affected the performance of the pitch shift. I'm still in DP 4.61 and have had good success for dry Upright bass usually about +- 6 to 11 cents. I did raise the alto a whole step on two pitches to correct a very fast unison phrase with my guitar. I did notice a slight change but it just sounded like more pressure was put on the reed. I didn't pay much attention as the sax wasn't exposed.
Watching the tape thing die was very interesting. I don't miss the razor blades at all. I went the Atari way in 1986 and have fond memories of syncing an 8 track 1/2 inch, an Atari 1040ST Hydrid Arts and a Mac+ Opcode at the same time on a project in 1989. There were only 3 CD manufactures in North America and the printing of the inserts cost more than the manufacture of the CD. Little tiny DATs in my briefcase. Now it's I want more RAM! Got to get more RAM! I need more RAM! I wonder if Stravinsky ever wished he had more keys to write in other than 12.

[toodamnhip]

This thread has lost a bit of focus from what I started it as...which is ok I guess.

My main point was that the automation seemed to DTOP working when processor load got heavy, wherein a once tuned voc would be out of tune on a pass, only to return to its tuned state on the next pass. This is so much the case that the mian reason I merge is to avoid this...however, with DP's effin long term merge bus, wherein cross fades can click after merging, where they once were fine, it is a nervous time when I merge crossfades...Its always something man...lol..

The other thing I wonder which is not on this thread, is whether having 40 track wuth the pitch shift on by defaulty, ven without ANY pitch adjustments made, uses more comp power than if one were to manually go click the little p and shut them all off. Also, I wonder if the little p being ON could ever cause DP to actually change the pitch of a note that was not adjusted? It does have to track each note and sometime I wonder if it could accidentally think it need to pitch a note? Seems like a good default state should be all little p's OFF until otherwise checked..If Maic Dave is around, I'd love to ask him if DP knows to not use comp power in areas where no pitching is doe but thep is in the ON position..

[Shooshie]

Wow. DP usually isn't so bad for 10 or 15 cents. But I think Melodyne is the best choice for heavy-duty pitch work. I don't own it, but I'm going to get it. The demos on their website convinced me. BTW, I'm also a woodwinds guy (went to North Texas a ways back) who originally got into this Mac/MOTU/MIDI stuff in 1984, for arranging, printing scores, and for performing with MIDI "orchestra." Boy... was I ever ahead of the curve. Been waiting 20 years for the state of the art to catch up with my original ambitions! Now it's getting really close. DP is a great platform for what we do. I've been through two Yamaha WX-7's, and am now well into a WX-5.

I probably won't make it to NAMM, but I hope those of you who DO make it will share their pictures and stories with us.

Good to meet you, Tom!

Shooshie

Hey Shoosh,
I used to play here in LA with a trombonist named Bill Yeager..He went to north texas state..know him?

Dave

Not personally, but the name sounds familiar. Hard to say, though. You know how it is with names. And I rarely played with trombonists except in lab bands and such. There were about 1500 music students there at the time. You never saw so many sax players in your life. Denton, Texas is one of the few places on earth where you can get any sort of ensemble together on short notice at any hour of the day or night. Though I lived in a house near campus, I'd ask my neighbors if my playing bothered them at night, but they always said they loved to go to sleep listening to it... only in a music town can you get THAT response from neighbors at 4 a.m.!

Shooshie

[monkey man]

Dude, is there really a Bop session there? I am always producing now, but miss playing Bop. I used to play with Joe Pass, Ted Greene and CHarlie Shoemake. Think I could get in on that Bop session? I play guitar so I'd need an amp...
Dave

You're dreamin, Davo; they'll only accept real musicians.
Can you play "Live 5.0" and a deck?

Dang. Slow Puss? You da man, man.

Cheers, Hipster
The awe-struck monkey.

[mess]

This thread has lost a bit of focus from what I started it as...which is ok I guess.

My main point was that the automation seemed to DTOP working when processor load got heavy, wherein a once tuned voc would be out of tune on a pass, only to return to its tuned state on the next pass. This is so much the case that the mian reason I merge is to avoid this...however, with DP's effin long term merge bus, wherein cross fades can click after merging, where they once were fine, it is a nervous time when I merge crossfades...Its always something man...lol..

The other thing I wonder which is not on this thread, is whether having 40 track wuth the pitch shift on by defaulty, ven without ANY pitch adjustments made, uses more comp power than if one were to manually go click the little p and shut them all off. Also, I wonder if the little p being ON could ever cause DP to actually change the pitch of a note that was not adjusted? It does have to track each note and sometime I wonder if it could accidentally think it need to pitch a note? Seems like a good default state should be all little p's OFF until otherwise checked..If Maic Dave is around, I'd love to ask him if DP knows to not use comp power in areas where no pitching is doe but thep is in the ON position..

AFAIK it uses CPU power only in these two instances:
When analyzing the file on import or after recording.
On a per track basis once a pitch move is made on that track, however if that pitch change is then deleted so that there is no correction it will go back to being idle and not consume any CPU resources.

This is what I was told by MOTU TS. Maybe Señor Magic could chime in to verify?