A Beatles Virtual Instrument

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Frodo
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Post by Frodo »

zed wrote:
Interestingly... not a single track from Sgt. Pepper.
Well, guess what? There were no singles from Sgt. Pepper *directly*, although the LP went to #1 (15 weeks in the US, 27 weeks in the UK, 30 weeks in Australia).

Curiously, Sgt Pepper and Help From My Friends were released as singles in 1987! Would you also believe that the album re-entered the Billboard charts that same year and topped at 141? 10th Anniversary, most likely.

The only singles in '67 for the Lads were two Pepper set-asides and four mystery tour tracks:

Penny Lane / S-berry Fields
Hello Good-bye / Walrus
All You Need Is Love / Baby You're A Rich Man
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Post by zed »

kassonica wrote:...Not to be repeated it seems (well NOT in digital anyway)
I'm not convinced. Just playing with those SoundToys demos and gaining further insight as to what effective filtering, echo, and saturation can do to alter sounds, I am still holding on the hope that I will eventually figure out the formula for capturing that '60s magic... although it will probably involve mastering the final mix to analog tape.

I might torture myself to death trying, but I'm gonna keep trying to unravel the mystery :!:
Frodo wrote:The only singles in '67 for the Lads were two Pepper set-asides and four mystery tour tracks:

Penny Lane / S-berry Fields
Hello Good-bye / Walrus
All You Need Is Love / Baby You're A Rich Man
What a bunch of ultra-cool songs! Although both Penny Lane and Strawberry Fields are technically from 1966, if I am not mistaken.
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Post by kassonica »

zed wrote:
kassonica wrote:...Not to be repeated it seems (well NOT in digital anyway)
I'm not convinced. Just playing with those SoundToys demos and gaining further insight as to what effective filtering, echo, and saturation can do to alter sounds, I am still holding on the hope that I will eventually figure out the formula for capturing that '60s magic... although it will probably involve mastering the final mix to analog tape.
.
Well NOT IMHO in PCM, DSD much better chance especially if you have a old EMI desk and 10 U47's and a fairchild 670 limiter etc......

But the songs and parts and how they were played counts for so much...

Also the world was a different place and there seemed to be a magic and optimism floating in the air that seems to have been lost that somehow influenced those recordings.

It does make me misty eyed to be honest.
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Post by Timeline »

Think of it like buying a good book on the ways the engineers filtered, eq'd and recorded. That's about it I'm afraid with this VI
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Post by Frodo »

kassonica wrote: Also the world was a different place and there seemed to be a magic and optimism floating in the air that seems to have been lost that somehow influenced those recordings.

It does make me misty eyed to be honest.
Part of the magic and optimism grew from a lot of social blandness as the post-war 50's developed its own phony quality that a younger generation found repulsive and unusable. There was also a goodly amount of pessimism in the air, and yet the spirit of the decade spawned such amazing creativity with an unprecedented diversity where freedom of expression found a whole new meaning.
zed wrote:Although both Penny Lane and Strawberry Fields are technically from 1966, if I am not mistaken.
Yes-ish and no-ish (keep reading):

Both tunes were worked on between Oct '66 through Jan '67, unleashed on the world in '67.

I agree that it was "technically" '66, but the Beatles were such a different band in Aug of that same year-- still touring in fact. The Pepper era was such a striking creative departure that I've had the tendency to view Pepper as a leap forward rather than a throwback.

With that said, I'd be remiss to overlook the importance of "Revolver", also released in Aug, '66. I've had the tendency to pair this album more with "Rubber Soul"-- but I am now recognizing the germinating seeds of Penny Lane and Strawberry Fields in songs like For No One and Tomorrow Never Knows respectively.
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Post by zed »

kassonica wrote:But the songs and parts and how they were played counts for so much...

Also the world was a different place and there seemed to be a magic and optimism floating in the air that seems to have been lost that somehow influenced those recordings.
Yep. I'd agree with that. I really think it was a real period of musical creativity, with so many of the recording tools that we now depend upon, being first introduced (in their original hardware/tube versions). Musicians and engineers alike were trying out all these new innovations and using them in the most creative of ways to create new sonic experiences. I know people are still trying to do that... but the results rarely seem to come close to the things that came out of that era.
Frodo wrote:Part of the magic and optimism grew from a lot of social blandness as the post-war 50's developed its own phony quality that a younger generation found repulsive and unusable. There was also a goodly amount of pessimism in the air, and yet the spirit of the decade spawned such amazing creativity with an unprecedented diversity where freedom of expression found a whole new meaning.
I'd say that LSD was also a big part of it. The vintage gear helped to capture musical genius in the warmest of ways... but musical genius was aided by perspectives gained through experiences with psychedelics. That was a big part of the magic, methinks.
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Post by Frodo »

zed wrote: I'd say that LSD was also a big part of it.

:lol: :lol:

Whatever they were doing back then, it still sounds good now for certain!!
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Post by kassonica »

I think one of the most important aspects of why that time frame had a lot of the magic in it (outside of LSD 25) was the fact that it was the generation born at the height of the 2nd world war.

Born into great conflict and confusion and even after the war in england took decades to rebuild these kids who grew up listening to 'rock and roll' that came out of the USA and was based on the blues, they grabbed hold of it in its infancy and molded it to meets their own needs.

A need to remove from the destruction that had been around them since the war.

And then there POT.
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Post by Frodo »

kassonica wrote:... (outside of LSD 25) ...
Hmm- kassonica-- you post was certainly intelligent and smartly written.

Most impressive was the fact that you had the model number of said lysergic!

The founder of the feast:

http://www.lysergic-asylum.com/picts/fl ... _front.jpg
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Post by kassonica »

Now tell me Mr Frodo what's a humble hobit (albeit a ring wearing one) doing going to such trippy spacey sites eh.

:D
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Post by Frodo »

kassonica wrote:Now tell me Mr Frodo what's a humble hobit (albeit a ring wearing one) doing going to such trippy spacey sites eh.

:D
Oh, I've been known to "picture" myself in a boat on a river, but I've never dabbled even remotely in lysergics. I just recall Harrison talking about they way the cell structure looked under a microscope, and it's seems true that much of the visual artwork of the time owes a bit to these types of cellular geometrics.
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Post by Frodo »

Yes-- I've seen that one!! LOL. As has been said: "that's an awful lot of 'cute' in a single diaper!" :lol:
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Post by Frodo »

Okay-- time to resurrect this thread once again.

Reasons-- I've resumed work on a Beatley project now that PLAY and FabFour are 64-bit, now that I have a computer that can handle it, and now that the past year as allowed me to acquire things such as IK Amplitube2/Ampeg/Hendrix as well as a few gems in the way of instruments--- such as an Epiphone Casino, and Rickenbacker 360-6, and as of yesterday a Gretsch 6119-1963HT (George's "Help!" guitar) For bass guitar I now have a Hofner and a Ric 4003.

I now have no excuses whatsoever.

That said, I found this fascinating DVD set which should arrive in a couple of days:

Volume 1 (QT)
http://to-a-tee.tv/products/beatles1/clips.html

Volume 2 (flash YouTube- style)
http://to-a-tee.tv/products/beatles2/clips.html

Volume 3 (flash YouTube- style)
http://to-a-tee.tv/products/beatles3/clips.html

Each clip is quite short, just a few seconds, but it's very well done, I think. I'm looking forward to working with these because:

1. They will provide great audio references for matching instrument and amp tones in DP for numerous sounds of the 60's. Only the guitar parts are played without drums and vocals, so the integrity of the parts are easier to distinguish than they are from using the original recordings.

2. Seeing the fingerings will facilitate creating other guitar parts to fill in the gaps. For example, I do not have a 12-string of any kind at the moment, so observing the fingering techniques and picking styles, open and stopped strings can be more easily and more convincingly emulated in FabFour or Real Guitar or some other guitar VI.

This is a very sticky challenge for me when recreating guitar parts with VIs. If I had all the instruments (and were as accomplished a player as I'd like to be) I'd play them myself as audio, but that day is yet to come.

For those who play guitar, it's no secret that there are numerous ways of playing the exact same notes on different parts of the neck. If one really considers the unique intro to "I Feel Fine", for example, it becomes clear that this is played on the lower strings starting on the 10th fret and working downwards. It's a very different tone that can't be duplicated faithfully on higher strings. Also, further research reveals that Lennon played these parts (not George). Lennon also used his acoustic Gibson J-160E for this.

Also, important details such as hearing hammer-ons (hammers-on?) and slides are concerned on specific strings have huge impacts on how picking styles and techniques are recreated with a VI in a DAW. Slides are clearly on one string, and that can make all the difference between a boring track and a musical one. Even where VIs have clear limitations, understanding the same facts edifies one's understanding of how such parts would be played on a real instrument anyway. As I see it, such a study has few down sides no matter how one chooses to represent the parts ultimately.

Having such facts serves as an imortant "missing link" of sorts with narrowing the gap between reality and virtual reality. I truly believe that many virtual guitar tracks suffer because a more considerate study of this performance gray area often gets overlooked for the lack of time or even the lack of patience.

For real Beatle fans looking at the clips, you will notice that the host humorously chooses to wear clothing akin to what the Beatles wore in various phases of their career. Less obvious, perhaps, is the fact that he also has gone through the trouble of taping the Candlestick Park setlist on the upper cutaway of his Rickenbacker 325 in the same manner the John had done.

Such things may seem superfluous, but for me it's an additional testament to this guy's deep level of attention to detail. The mere sound of his playing catches the ear as being (imho) a most respectable, if not faithful, representation.

Guitar players may scoff at some of this, but I'm not a guitar player. I'm first and foremost a keyboard player who also happens to play the guitar. Big difference. I believe many DAW users fall into this category, and such issues all too often remain unaddressed. My love for the guitar has inspired a commitment to pursue virtual and real approaches in greater detail concurrently. Keyboard players tend to think differently from guitarists, and where many similarities in what each can offer to a track, the unique differences must be addressed independently, imho.

Mind, the purpose of all this is not to create another Beatle album. For me it's a wonderful study in musical balance. Any good band will have a multi-faceted sense of balance with their choices of instruments, the tones they choose, as well as what parts those instruments play together as a whole. I believe this study can be done with any band, and such studies can only serve to enhance how virtual tracks are produced in a DAW.

I choose the Beatles' music because I find their output a great resource for a diversity of musical styles which influenced them and morphed into styles that influenced others later. Most importantly, it's the blues that serves as the foundation. Sure, there's a long history before the Beatles of what one might call "authentic" blues, but my current explorations go much further than just studying the blues.

It's easy to look at "Honey Don't", "Boys", "Dizzy Miss Lizzy", "Bad Boy", "Rock and Roll Music", or "She's A Woman", but the Beatles offered a wide variety of 12-, 16-, and 20-bar blues. "I'll Cry Instead" is one example. "I Fell Fine" is another. Clever departures include "Taxman", "Ballad of John and Yoko", "The Word", and "Another Girl" among others.

It was in their later years that such tunes as "I Want You, She's So Heavy" brought less "blues" per se and more of a "blusey" approach to their style vocabulary. I dare say that "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" falls into this category where Clapton's influence cannot be easily ignored. Getting into "Helter Skelter" and the jam session near the end of Abbey Road, it seems to me that rock and roll had grown into something that would later be referred to simply as ROCK.

It's taken a long time-- a lifetime-- and an embarrassingly long thread to get to the point where the tools and ideas have begun to congeal at last.

"What's past is prologue". What follows is how all of this relates specifically to DP.

This is my story. This is my song. Thanks for reading.

more to come...

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Post by zed »

Frodo wrote:Okay-- time to resurrect this thread once again.
Glad you did so. I wanted to do so myself but I couldn't remember, for the life of me, what this thread was called. ;-)

Congratulations on your new guitar purchase! I think I am going to have to start feeling jealous. I am also working on a Beatley project, and I ain't got no Gretsch to help me out! :-(

Those to-a-tee videos look great. I am definitely considering the purchase. I will ask you some questions after you have had a chance to use them. I hope there will be additional volumes since many of the songs I would be most interested in learning how to play (or just to witness them being played) are not included in those volumes.
Frodo wrote:Mind, the purpose of all this is not to create another Beatle album.
Well we are at loggerheads on that point, my friend. I *AM* creating another Beatle album!!! ;-)

Okay, okay. Maybe not exactly another Beatle album... but hopefully one with the same kind of sentiments and one which will be equally pleasant to listen too. Of course, I am going through a lot of torment and drudgery trying to get it that way. :shock:

Good to see you back in these parts Mr Frodo!
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