MOTUnation.com

Before I bought my Orion 32, I asked my dealer to call his contact at MOTU to ask if they were going to be coming out with any thunderbolt to audiowire solution so that I could continue to use my 2408mk3s. I really wanted to stick with my 2408mk3s, but I'm working on a Macbook Pro now. I don't know who my dealer spoke to, but his contact at MOTU said that the 2408mk3 was "end of life" and any future thunderbolt would be new models like the 828x. So I heard it only second hand through my dealer, but that's what I heard.

James Steele wrote:

Ric4001 wrote:

James Steele wrote:Does anybody know of any other audio interface company that sold audio interface comprised of a PCIe card and separate interface that has announced plans to make a TB solution to attach interfaces that would normally be attached to the PCIe card to the new MacPros?

I'm wondering if there's any other manufacturer that is in a comparable situation where they have users expecting them to take a technology that is being obsoleted by Apple and make it work on newer computers? Or is MOTU unique in this conundrum?

Isn't this what Apogee did with its Symphony thunderbolt adapter? The Apogee thunderbolt adapter works not only with the newer Symphony interfaces, but also all of the older Apogee interfaces that had a Symphony card installed and that connected to the Symphony PCI cards. The thunderbolt adapter replaced the PCI card.

I wasn't aware of that one, thanks. I haven't often looked at Apogee interfaces as the price point was usually higher. I wonder how much they charged for the thunderbolt adapter?

The Symphony was released in 2011. It was designed to be connected out the PC-32 ports to a Pro Tools HD card or a PCIe card to a Mac for Logic or via USB to a Mac if running a Core Audio app such as Digital Performer or Cubase. Thunderbolt was supposed to be part of the Symphony from the beginning but, when released, it wasn't yet ready. The Thunderbridge was released later. There is also an Ethernet port but that was never enabled. Since FW was dropped by Apple before 2011, the decision was made not to include it.

Note the PCIe card is to control certain functions in Logic. DP users were to hook up the Symphony via USB.

The Thunderbridge is a box that connects to a PC-32 port and provides two TB ports. I don't know if it replaces the PCIe card only for Logic users or if Core Audio app users can also use the Symphony via Thunderbolt now.

The other PC-32 port is used to daisy-chain multiple Symphony boxes.

James wrote....


Like I said... it was only my thought/suggestion. I think what keeps being overlooked here is that keeping the customers loyal to MOTU is one thing, but if nobody's buying anything or they fail to sell enough TB audio interfaces, they're going to have trouble keeping the lights on. Business do indeed have to make a profit.

How much do you suppose they could sell a TB --> PCIe breakout box for? What sort of profit could they make on one? Currently how many users are running the newest MacPros? Would it cannibalize sales of TB interfaces and prevent them from getting new TB interfaces out on the market? How many PCIe users are there and would such a breakout box be something they might potentially LOSE money on after the cost of development and manufacturing is considered? If they sold something like that at say $299 a unit and could make $99 profit on each... how many units would they need to sell to recover costs? Man... I hate to be the capitalist in the room, but...

I'M NOT SPEAKING FOR MOTU HERE... I KNOW NOTHING OF THEIR PLANS

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, because they do have to consider their bottom line and we might not always like it, but at least they're not Avid!




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I am still following this thread James. (Thanks for entertaining the "devils advocate" role.... and being a capitalist isn't a bad thing, despite what the liberal progressives say... It's what makes America great)

That being said, I would pay $500 or more, for a thunderbolt to audio wire interface (or a TB compatible PCI-"524" card), and I would immediately purchase 3. And I would still consider future TB products from MOTU as replacements for older audiowire io, because of end of life reliability, if the new products met my needs in the future.

MOTU seems pretty intent on offering DSP functionality pre the input record on all of their newer TB/USB consumer type boxes. (Comps, Limiters and eqs to help with the input clips... Etc...). Adding similar DSP functions to this hypothetical thunderbolt connectivity product could be a selling point for it besides the obvious connectivity fixes, and it would probably be easy to integrate into their existing code base for cue mix DSP.

I think that an adapter box would not canabalize the sales of the current TB products from MOTU simply for the fact that the HD192/24io products are for a different user base then the target home user (built in mic pre and guitar track one at a time consumer users). However, if MOTU plans to release TB replacements for the current PCI based products, then it certainly would limit their sales initially.

My gut says MOTU just doesn't want to invest in audio wire products anymore. It is dated tech, no doubt... It uses a FireWire 400 cable! But, IT WORKS GREAT! Like you said in previous posts, there is not really any other company (besides AVID/Apogee) that has a product that fills the role of the 24io or the HD192 besides MOTU.

If Motu has to bail on audiowire technology, I would love to see them REPLACE the PCI product line of interfaces with thunderbolt COUNTERPART products (no card required). They can put DSP on them if they have too.... But that's isn't a selling point for me. Pro level Raw Balanced I/O is what we need. Studios that still work on large format consoles (yes, most major films and records are still tracked on large format consoles), and remote recording company's that need high track counts of line level inputs, latency free through monitoring, high visibility input and output metering, will all jump on this if it's is quality like the hd192's and doesn't say AVID on it.

Including an audiowire bridge (3-4 additional audiowire ports) in these hypothetical new counterpart products would be a real sign of customer loyalty for MOTU. I realize, the development of that would be hefty and probably cost prohibitive, but it is wishful thinking. (Maybe it could option card for these products, added in a slot in back of them if you wanted to pay for it, to help cover development costs)

If MOTU announces products like these, everyone will forget about the audiowire thunderbolt bridge issues eventually. (And then this thread would finally fizzle out!!!!).

Are you listening MOTU!!!!!! (Also wishful thinking.... )

Thunderbolt cannot pass the entire FireWire spec. If it cannot pass the portion of the Audio-wire spec that MOTU uses, then such products cannot exist.

mikehalloran wrote:Thunderbolt cannot pass the entire FireWire spec. If it cannot pass the portion of the Audio-wire spec that MOTU uses, then such products cannot exist.

AudioWire is a multiplexed audio data stream, capable of 24 tracks at 96K /24bit (or 12 channels at 192khz/24 bit) in almost real time. The 424 card's DSP chip interrogates each AudioWire port, establishes comm and sync with each, and processes the audio data stream from each audiowire device connected. It presents its data steam to the computer via PCIe buss, via software running on the card's DSP chip, and then in turn to driver running on the computer.

AudioWire's data stream is a unique protocol developed by MOTU, that just so happens to us a Firewire cable for it's connection (probably because they were popular and cheap at the time of it's release). AudioWire devices might use a standard firewire chip set for link handshaking, but I doubt it. Either way, it doesn't matter what the FireWire spec is capable of, since AudioWire and FireWire are 2 different things.

To create a thunderbolt devices that would be counterparts to the current MOTU PCI offerings would be entirely possible. Thunderbolt easily has enough transfer speed and low enough latency to pass the combined audio data of the sum of 4 audiowire devices in real time, and has plenty of bandwidth left over. The only technical hurdle is how to clock (sample sync) multiple devices together on the same copmuter, especically of they are devices attached to multiple thunderbolt ports of the same computer. But even that could be accomplished by a separate coax or other type of buss connection running between each device.

Since Audiowire's protocol is unique to the current MOTU PCI Devices, I would expect that MOTU would retask the current TI DSP code set from the 424 card (already written and running, but then obviosly add the fix for the APPLE Thunderbolt updates). This hardware section as part of each new PRO Thunderbolt device could act as the software based conversion/communication interface between the TB and Audiowire data streams, just like the 424 cards do now. Like I said before, it could even be an add on card, that fits into a slot on the back of the device. Then, you could buy if you want to use legacy audiowire devices with the your new hypothetical MOTU Pro Thunderbolt interface, or not.

Best of both worlds MOTU!

Gosh, you do an awful lot of speculating, supposing, assuming and just plain blind guessing...

None of which changes what I wrote. I freely admit that mine is pure speculation but I suspect that I am right. I don't care... having dinner with the friend who has my 2408 and I am not asking her to return it.

You base much of it on the similarity between the two cables - which are not the same as many can tell you (the AW plug is or was a little longer) - and has nothing to do with it, anyway.

Of course, TB has the bandwidth. So does USB 3, eSATA and, as has been proven on these boards, so does USB 2. Apparently, that's not the issue.

Now if you know both specs so well, why don't you do it? The patent on Audio Wire has expired by now. The copyrights on the drivers might be sticky but, if 2408 owners can download the MOTU drivers, not an issue. Trademarks? Can't help you there but that's what attorneys are for - not an issue till you have a working prototype, anyway.

Breadboard the sucker and I'll contribute to the kickstarter campaign. Unless it is not as easy as you make it sound...

It can be totally easy to do, and financial suicide to do so. I don't know, and I likely won't given MOTU's history of silence.

I believe the reason we won't see a Thunderbolt to AudioWire adapter is because MOTU has become a software company and is moving away from hardware. You'll notice that the software side is expanding a lot faster than the hardware and most of the new hardware is focused on the lower end and not dedicated studio offerings. The 828x as nice as it is is another jack of all trades and nothing like something like the 24i/o.

Speaking of the dedicated studio offerings, MOTU has really lost that market anyway and that's mostly because so much is done in computer who really needs all that I/O anyway. I know I don't, I just finished a studio move and reduced all the rack gear I wasn't using and was able to decommission a 24i/o that was previously full. I'm down to two 2408s and two 8pre. With a bit more time organizing I might be able to get it down so an 828x can fill my needs too and I won't even need AudioWire.

My 24i/o is listed on ebay now and soon I'll list the 2408s and a 304 which I'll really miss because its been so useful importing all the odd audio formats people have brought to me.

Hell I might not even stay with MOTU since I don't use any of their software.

Interesting... although MOTU has been in the software business for a long, long time. I can't think of any real new expansion of their software offerings or new products, except for porting Digital Performer to Windows. I agree though that with VIs becoming so central to the way most of us work that multiple interfaces wish lots of I/O aren't as necessary. Still, lacking good D>A converters built into most computers, most people will need at least one third party audio interface.

mikehalloran wrote:Thunderbolt cannot pass the entire FireWire spec. If it cannot pass the portion of the Audio-wire spec that MOTU uses, then such products cannot exist.

Strictly speaking, it's not impossible. Protocol wrappers, or mediation by translation to common formats could be done, but it's doubtful anyone would want to do it. You'd have to overcome problems of timing and latency, and you might have to develop new chips, not to mention the problem of funding investment in an end of life product. I can't imagine something like this taking priority over investment of time and money in new products at the front end of the product life cycle.

Well it looks like finally we got our answer. The PCI line of audio cards is officially dead as of today. Guess we won't be needing that adapter after all. RIP Audiowire.

I've hardly had the time to start using my PCIe-424 and I see that AudioWire is basically dead. Oh well. But, as long as there is alternative hardware that also has PCIe slots on the motherboard, and that can run OSX it seems there is a way forward yet, if needed.

However, if the rumored switch from Intel to ARM comes around, I don't know if there will be an alternative hardware route. But that is still a couple of years ahead. Meanwhile I'll enjoy the software that works (Logic Pro X) with my different hardware.

There also are pre ashtray MacPros that upgrades easily still, so I think several people in this thread might chill. If you have 19" racks with lots of AudioWire equipment, then you might be able to live with your older MacPro still? I guess you have at least a couple of years worth in those, and electronic equipment should be written down in three to five years anyway.

Finally, if it is computing power for your audio which is your main concern, there might be some adequate firewire DSP solutions on the market?

I know that replacing those io24s will be expensive, but every technology gets replaced, and there comes a point when you should realize that it is time to move on.

Now, I wonder how hard it would be to reverse engineer the audiowire stuff in order to see if there is any way to pair it with usb or thunderbolt.

Anyone interested in 424 Audiowire hardware should look now as the prices have dropped as people are listing a glut of gear. 2408mk3 with 424pcie are going for around $400 complete!

I tried to run my 424 PCIe on a Hackintosh. Brand new i7, high end overclockers mobo, 32 gb of ram and a SATA3 SSD and I could not keep it from freezing up. Played with bios settings and swapping parts for 6 months before selling it off and grabbing a used Pro. I had even built it in a beautiful 4 unit rack mount case and now I'm back to that stupid tower.

The tower is not so stupid if it works, right?

Funny to read all this,

I am in the middle of a upgrade (or is it downgrade?) proces from going all analogue mixing with lots of outboard gear and synths on a soundcraft ghost and MIDI sequencing with a Pentium 4 3ghz 2004 model to going mixing in the box with a lot of outboard gear and a mac pro and 424 system with 1 x 2408mk3 and 3 x 24 i/o.

My 2004 pc lasted 10 years and it still was good to go, only thing, analogue mixing hold me back, i want Total recall, endless filters and fx. So now with the Mac pro im good for another 10 years i guess. Most processing like compressing will be done outboard, fx processors i will sell and replace them for plug-ins witch are better and cost effective anyways.

I did a test project to see how far i could push the Mac pro, i didnt use any of my outboard synths, fx and dynamics and the mac pro was running it quite easy and i was running lots of filters and other fx. So in practicum terms, after my switch the mac only does the mixing and fx since all my sound comes from hardware samplers and synths anyways.

So i guess i will be good with my mac pro and 424 system for more then 10 years, i am not complaining yet, end of the month april the new owner will come for his ghost and i make the switch!

Wish me Luck!

Ofcourse i'm already thinking about what could replace the 80 analog in and outputs i get with this motu setup. It seems like the new motu series doesnt have a 24 i/o replacement. So when the time goes by i'm probably screwed but for the next ten years i have a system that completely kicks my ghost his butt!