Varispeed audio in DP

[David Polich]

James, I agree with you too.

My real issue is with anyone claiming they're so great that their recorded
tracks don't have any issues or mistakes. No one can make an issue-free recording, that's just not humanly possible.

I consider myself to be a pretty good keyboard player and a sound designer, but I make flams and flubs, and sometimes a programming error or two. And I
have acquaintances who have engineered several "superstar" albums and have told me that certain "stars", who I can't name right now (but they're female and blonde) have serious vocal issues that always have to be addressed. After
they leave the room, that is. Then the engineers pull their hair out assembling specialized vocal effects chains, correcting bad notes and automating levels to a curve that looks as jagged as the Rocky Mountains.
Then the stars hear the final mix and pat themselves on the back for "sounding so good" or "nailing it".

[MIDI Life Crisis]

...I don't have to give him the same respect I give a player who paid his dues and can play his parts. That's all I'm trying to say. Those players wont play live anyway, because they'd fall flat on their faces.

I am totally in agreement. I have NO respect for those guys and gals. OTOH (and this is not directed at you James) there is a feeling in the thread that tools like varispeed are inherently evil or, at best, cheating. I don't think they necessarily are. They can be cheating, but they can also be used in creative ways that are "valid" IMO. For example, I also design sound and sometimes have to massage real world sounds into something they ain't. Those evil tools are simply another way of doing that. More often than not, I use a sampler to accomplish that. Make a mosquito a t-rex or an aardvark a passionate love scene. (Don't laugh - it works! OK, laugh )

As you well know, producing a recording and playing live are two different beasts. For that matter, playing "all the notes" live and in realtime (whether on a recording or in performance) is another beast. That's what I do. That's what you do. Lord knows I don't always hit every note and there is no shame in that. OMG, I'll admit it, I make mistakes. Show me a musician who has never hit a wrong note and I'll show you a liar.

What about classical players who use the best of various takes to piece together a "perfect" performance. In performance, they can usually play the piece "perfectly" (whatever that actually means.) Are they cheating by splicing?

Absolutely!

Is that "wrong?" I don't think I can answer that. IMO, it is on one level. On another level, hearing the music exactly as written (barring interpretive considerations) can be an important tool. And what about retakes and splicing? If we consider retakes and comping, in a sense that is no different than applying varispeed - except (as you said) we are playing in real time. And WTF about step entry? I NEVER used it and never will. Nor do I speed up a passage that was played slower; not in MIDI and not in a recorded performance on an acoustic instrument.

I think we are in complete agreement: it takes a much better musician to get on that stage and "...do it live!" In fact, we live for that - at least I do. As far as varispeed - I could care less if it's in DP or how to make the effect. There are lots of choices in making music. We prefer notes. Others prefer pushing a button. Are our methods more valid?

ABSOLUTELY!!

[newrigel]

They can be cheating, but they can also be used in creative ways that are "valid" IMO.

Hey Mike I'm totally down with this in application but for someone to achieve a Geddy Lee formant type of sound by artificial means is a hack or pitching down to get more balls in their formant is false representation of their capabilities. If someone has a name because of their range and it's done through artificial means, or if they are doing speed licks and are doing it through these types of means... they are considered a fake. Sound design is totally different. It's not using it to achieve something you could otherwise do if you had the abilities. It's an effect.

[James Steele]

Yeah... as I said varispeed is not inherently good or evil. I didn't mean to get on this tangent. And of course I've spliced a take before myself. But for fixing minor things when in a hurry and something that I can, with a clear conscious tell myself that I could play closely enough that I don't feel bad about it. As for my vocals, I have pretty good control of pitch, and I don't need to do much touch up with pitch. On the other hand, I enjoy recording multiple takes and then using the comp tool to piece together a part where just a little more attitude comes acros with a particular phrase and it has the right emotion. But in pre-DAW days it wasn't uncommon for me to use the first take and punch in one or two minor fixes.

[tommymandel]

They can be cheating, but they can also be used in creative ways that are "valid" IMO.

Hey Mike I'm totally down with this in application but for someone to achieve a Geddy Lee formant type of sound by artificial means is a hack or pitching down to get more balls in their formant is false representation of their capabilities. If someone has a name because of their range and it's done through artificial means, or if they are doing speed licks and are doing it through these types of means... they are considered a fake. Sound design is totally different. It's not using it to achieve something you could otherwise do if you had the abilities. It's an effect.

Whoa - you lost me again. Didn't Hendrix and Stevie Ray tune their guitars down a half step or more, just to "get more balls?"

Unless that made it harder to push the strings, but no, that woulda made it easier. A HACK!!!
Jimi Hacktrix? I don't think so.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Don't confuse tuning with cheating. Even with different running you still have go play the frigging notes.

[newrigel]

Don't confuse tuning with cheating. Even with different tuning you still have go play the frigging notes.

EXACTLY!!! I'm talking about slowing down a song to a pitch where you can sing to it because you can't otherwise (well, in the natural sense of a real time performance) or playing faster than you could if the song played back at normal speed. Anyways... if you have to do these things, your out of your league.
There's 7 string guitars if you want to exploit the lower octaves.
I'm really sorry to have opened up a can of worms here... I intended no harm, only to edify that some people don't use these techniques. It's not that it's bad or good, it's just your integrity as either a shredder, or a very formidable vocalist is @ stake if you use these tricks because if you are a performing artist then it will show that your not on point. People can see through the visage and to me, I feel that musical integrity is more important than a product or trend. Being an accomplished performer is knowing what you can do as much as what you CAN'T!
If I can't do a specific part in a way I want to, I don't use ways of massaging it into existence... I rethink my ways and accomplish it in a way I can do it naturally and still have an effect. This is where the magic happens. To be able to rework something to have the same effect but without going beyond your abilities to achieve it.

[KEVORKIAN]

This thread has got me looking around for albums where varispeed was used. I don't have a dog in this race but all this discussion has got me interested in a technique that I never gave much thought to.

One thing I can say, is that varispeed is a technique that really can't be used to subversively and radically tune a vocal by more than a half-step to a step because of the formant changes.

It's been ages since I've seen varispeed in use or even given it much serious thought but ages ago I recall doing an internship at Soundworks in NYC and seeing an engineer there make a subtle varispeed adjustment to provide a thickening effect to some keyboard overdubs. The advantage was that there was no modulation yet the shift in formants (note attack/release) created an interesting type of layering. Sounded amazing.

Queen:

http://www.queensongs.info/albums/queen.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.last.fm/music/Queen/_/'39" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Led Zep:

http://www.wiredgypsy.com/led-zeppelin.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Cure:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friday_I'm_in_Love" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Random good post I found:

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/sho ... stcount=13" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[MIDI Life Crisis]

And where would the Chipmunks be today with that effect? Huh? Huh?

I bet it took some talented actors to talk slowly so it could be sped up and sound like it was done in realtime.

[tommymandel]

Wow, great examples.

I'd like to have VS available in the event that something is already recorded multitrack in DP, and then the client decides that it's a bit too fast, but isn't sure. Rather than going through the process of adjusting all the soundbites to sequence tempo (which presupposes they are all pre-analyzed and analyzed correctly) it would be sweet to just be able to notch it up or down a bit for the client to hear. Of course if everything is still in MIDI, then there's no problem doing that.

And as Dr. Kervorkian pointed out, there are some cool effects to be had with triple tracking keyboards (and vocals too) just a bit high and low. I remember that from when I had my 2".

There used to be a trick (ooo-the T-word!) in Sound Designer II, where you could change the sample rate of a sound file in its Get Info Window, and then readjust it somewhere else, to get it sped up or slowed down a-la varispeed, but I'll have to try to remember how I did that.

[tommymandel]

i wonder if VS's absence in DP isn't a sound quality issue? The engineers and programmers and QC folks at MOTU have always made a point of how much better our DSP sounds than the 'other' methods available in the marketplace. Maybe that's what's keeping VS out of our feature-set. And maybe the best sounding VS is in the pipeline as I type mine.

[KEVORKIAN]

i wonder if VS's absence in DP isn't a sound quality issue? The engineers and programmers and QC folks at MOTU have always made a point of how much better our DSP sounds than the 'other' methods available in the marketplace. Maybe that's what's keeping VS out of our feature-set. And maybe the best sounding VS is in the pipeline as I type mine.

I have Logic 9 but have never tried the Varispeed option (I'll need to find time to give it a spin). I remember reading some complaints about the resultant quality somewhere but then everyone complains on the interweb so, who knows, maybe it's cool... Anyway, I would imagine that there are some serious quality concerns that need to be addressed to get this right. If the folks at Motu are connoisseurs of good varispeed maybe they didn't think the world was ready yet.

[KEVORKIAN]

Beatles were varispeed fanatics. There is/was a book (which looks cool and that I'm going to look to buy) called "Recording The Beatles" that apparently tracks their usage of varispeed, tape loops etc on a track by track basis:

http://www.recordingthebeatles.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.recordingthebeatles.com/1968 ... review.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Some further reading:

The Beatles:

http://www.garykendall.net/classes/Beat ... record.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ghobish]

And where would the Chipmunks be today with that effect? Huh? Huh?

I bet it took some talented actors to talk slowly so it could be sped up and sound like it was done in realtime.

All David Seville.

[KEVORKIAN]

And where would the Chipmunks be today with that effect? Huh? Huh?

I bet it took some talented actors to talk slowly so it could be sped up and sound like it was done in realtime.

All David Seville.

30 Million Sold...

http://www.tsimon.com/chipmunk.htm