A Beatles Virtual Instrument

[Frodo]

Hey Frodo,

I enjoyed your story about Her Majesty. I had a similar experience in my childhood, around the time I was about 12, and remember thinking that it was the absolute coolest thing that they had little surprise hiding in there... not to mention the oddness of the song, panning from one side to the other and then ending abruptly on that single note. Brilliant!!

You's and me's iz gonna get together on Blue Jay Way and trade tales, Zed. I'm convinced it was meant to be!!!!!!

I thought I read that the $40k ones, (i.e. the ones which are actually the most valuable) are the butcher covers which still have the past-over and it is still UNREMOVED. Wouldn't be quite as fun to look at, but a definitely intriguing item.

No, no!! The most valuable ones are the 20 Livingston pristine versions that were released BEFORE the controversy (and preserved once the controversy took wing). The second most valuable are those with the pasteover but not torn off. I don't know what the actual street value of these things are as of today-- but at last assessment, $40k was top dollar about a year ago.

Of course, that would be $30k Canadian these days!!

Somewhere, I've got some info on which butcher covers are which-- but I need to renew the collectors going prices. If I can get the info update, I'll pass it along to you.

But I want that Japanese Abbey Road release in the worst way!!! Grrrr!!

[Frodo]

Ugh--- something just happened to me tonight that must as close as anything to an epiphany as I've ever had.

In a nutshell, this is leading towards the acquisition of a vintage Rickenbacker 4001 and consequential hobbit bankruptcy.

In any case-- the revelation came through the afore mentioned compilation entitled Abbey Road.

The pursuit of happiness is a lifelong search, is it not?

[zed]

Ugh--- something just happened to me tonight that must as close as anything to an epiphany as I've ever had.

In a nutshell, this is leading towards the acquisition of a vintage Rickenbacker 4001 and consequential hobbit bankruptcy.

Please elaborate.

??? This sounds like it could be interesting. ???

[kassonica]

ZED Wrote

Kassonica, am I to understand that you are saying the Toshiba Black Triangle CD sounds much better than the original UK vinyl pressing?

I'm afraid, very afraid to say this but YES.

It's the only CD i have that sounds better than vinyl, although i avn't AB them back to back but i know that album and pressing so well.

There is nothing like the Black Triangle version I've ever heard and the weirdest thing of all is it was mastered on Digital circa 84 but i think it gives great credit to JUST HOW GOOD THAT MASTER TAPE IS both as a format and the mix quality.

Someone on another forum had the idea that for total fans and audiophiles of the Beatles, a run of CD's or even DVD Audio's should be made from the 1st gen tapes with no EQ compression or any processing, just a exact replica of exactly what's on those tapes.

I would gladly pay $100 per disk for these.

those in the know understand that the MONO mixes up till Abbey rd are the REAL mixes.

My original 60's mono pressing of Revolver (aussie) is simply unbelievable and leaves the stereo one (original as well) for dead.


On the collectibility front, the 1st album PLease please me in Stereo (UK only) is one the rarest pressings to be found. It's been a while since i was in the collectors circles but if my memory serves me there was only 5000-1000 every printed for MONO for the standard and a copy in mint does command big $$$

But 40k for a butcher cover that is just INSANE. I've seen a glued one but couldn't bring myself to buy it.

[zed]

those in the know understand that the MONO mixes up till Abbey rd are the REAL mixes.

Hmmmmm. I dunno about that. I have often heard it said, but I don't share the opinion.

I agree with it up to a point... up to 1965 to be more precise. There is no question that the Beatles earlier output is phenomenal in mono... There is a wonderful presence and tone to those early mono recordings.

But when we hit 1965, no friggin' way!!! One of the treasures of Rubber Soul is the gloriousness of the stereo mix... the way each speaker pushes sound into the room differently. While Rubber Soul may also sound wonderful in mono (how couldn't it?), I would never prefer it over the stereo version unless I was listening to it in a place where the stereo image could not be appreciated... like in a shopping mall.

Same goes for all the albums that follow. So many say that Sgt. Pepper and the White Album (for which the mono mixes were mixed with the Beatles supervision/participation) are superior to the stereo mixes. I completely do not buy it. The stereo mixes are fabulous, and shouldn't be underestimated.

My original 60's mono pressing of Revolver (aussie) is simply unbelievable and leaves the stereo one (original as well) for dead.

Oh kassonica!! One of the most intriguing aspects of Revolver was the appearance of ADT used pretty much throughout the whole album. It gives the album a very special character because it creates this really cool stereo imaging that is just magical. Sorry to disagree, but I listened to some of the mono tracks from Revolver and found them to be let down. Taking away the stereo takes away what I believe is a really significant part of that record's magic.

Listen to Here, There and Everywhere first in mono, and then put on the stereo version, back to back. Then tell me that you haven't changed your mind.

[kassonica]

I must make this point ZED I never said the stereo mixes were bad they are F@#king awesome and i do love some of them yes, and with revolver your examples are spot on.

But the point is that MONO was the standard up till around 67-68 and the Beatles would put a greater degree of time into the mono and run the stereo one's off almost as an afterthought.

It points this out very clearly in the book by Mark Lewishom The Complete Beatles Recording Sessions where it documents this very well.

Also the remaining Beatles themselves say this on the anthology bonus disk.

I believe that this started to change around the white album but it's most evident on Abbey RD as this was the first time they had recored Ringo's drums in true stereo on The End.

In saying this the MONO mixes have a much more creativity in them in my opinion (simply because more time was spent on them) as mono was the standard for a long time and was at the top of it's game.

Also at the cutting stage it was easier to cut a single groove and cut the record louder with more bass and they mixed with this is mind.

Stereo was still a young format and still unknown in many ways hence the ridiculous idea of putting drums on one side and vox on another although sometimes it's not without it's charm but not for an entire album.


So really it comes down to personal preference and in this day and age our reference is stereo and when listening to mono it seems unnatural simply because there is no width that the ears have become used to.

The mono mixes were the mixes CLOSEST to the ideals the Beatles had which is why their so sort after and because they differ as well.

Although what is interesting here is, they would sometimes get more creative with the stereo ones in later years, Revolution # 9 is a great example of this but the mono version of Back in the USSR is so godamn rich and something seems lost in the stereo one.

Sgt Pepper is the one for me is almost equal except for a day in a life which NEEDS the stereo width but the mono Sgt pepper reprise in mono is so damn FAT sounding it kills me.

I do believe and pls someone correct me on this but Sgt Peppers was Primarily mixed for the MONO format.

Ok the rant is over carry on

[zed]

...and run the stereo one's off almost as an afterthought.

It points this out very clearly in the book by Mark Lewishom The Complete Beatles Recording Sessions where it documents this very well.

Someone definitely took some care to make the stereo mixes very interesting, so they sound like thoughtful afterthoughts, at least. I really think that the psychedelics had something to do with. When you are on mushrooms, LSD, and other such substances your experience of stereo imaging and depth of sound is completely enhanced. I don't think that the Beatles were at all unaware of the coolness of a stereo mix, even if they weren't doing those mixes themselves. They were trying to create surreal landscapes in music, and the stereo element is just as important as all the fuzz and the warble.

In saying this the MONO mixes have a much more creativity in them in my opinion (simply because more time was spent on them)...

I think I can agree that it takes more work and skill to get a good sounding mono mix. I have heard it said that a great stereo mix can be made by first EQing the mix in mono so that conflicting frequencies are already eliminated before separating the channels.

...the ridiculous idea of putting drums on one side and vox on another although sometimes it's not without it's charm but not for an entire album.

There was a time when I might have agreed with you about this, but I really do love those hard panned mixes. I have my stereo speakers each at a different height and each pointing in different directions (often 90% from eachother). The result is that depending where you are in room sounds will pop out at you differently. It makes for a unique listening experience everytime. Doesn't work so well for headphone listening, but I love hard panning in the room... I wish more music was mixed like that. It makes the sound more 3 dimensional wherever you are in your space.

Maybe think of it like this...
It is like 2 great mono mixes interacting with eachother!! It becomes magic in the room.

....but the mono Sgt pepper reprise in mono is so damn FAT sounding it kills me.

I do believe and pls someone correct me on this but Sgt Peppers was Primarily mixed for the MONO format.

I was just listening to Sgt. Pepper (in stereo) while responding to your message. It sounds so damn good. I also checked out the mono Sgt. Pepper Reprise and agree that it has it's merits. I like the way the drums have such delcious presence, but I do miss the stereo vocals and such.

[Frodo]

Ugh--- something just happened to me tonight that must as close as anything to an epiphany as I've ever had.

In a nutshell, this is leading towards the acquisition of a vintage Rickenbacker 4001 and consequential hobbit bankruptcy.

Please elaborate.

??? This sounds like it could be interesting. ???

Oh, let's just say a good friend of mine has the TBT version and played it for me late last night. I was floored by the sound!!

[zed]

Oh, let's just say a good friend of mine has the TBT version and played it for me late last night. I was floored by the sound!!

No wonder you abandoned us for a whole day!

I am still eager to hear, more specifically, why you suddenly have greater urgency to acquire a vintage Ricky 4001? Did you hear something in those recordings that presented the bass in such a different light? You spoke of epiphanies, afterall.

[Frodo]

Oh, let's just say a good friend of mine has the TBT version and played it for me late last night. I was floored by the sound!!

No wonder you abandoned us for a whole day!

I am still eager to hear, more specifically, why you suddenly have greater urgency to acquire a vintage Ricky 4001? Did you hear something in those recordings that presented the bass in such a different light? You spoke of epiphanies, afterall.

There was a certain sense of greater clarity and intimacy with the recording. The bass just sounded more special than I'd known it to already be. Of course, everything somehow sounded better-- there seemed to be a lot more separation which, I guess, goes without saying where the extra layers of mastering/leveling comps are not in use. It was much easier to tune out anything else except for what one cared to hear at any given moment. At times, it was like laying in the floor at Abbey Road in front of the amp.

Some content of character was simply more palpable, slightly less of a caricature; not so much a painting as it was a photograph. Does that make any sense?

Anyway, the 4001 was the bass du jour. After hearing the recording, the notion of "close enough" in terms of getting a knock-off instrument feels so far away from the aesthetic and musical goals I hope to reach. I was looking at my Ric 330 and had a feeling of gratification mixed with renewed longing. For that earlier character, a 360 and/or 325/350 are what's really needed, but the 330 will hold its own. The same with the bass. The Hofner works, but not on everything. "Rain" is a perfect example-- the bass is SO up in that mix and it just sounds so good!!

As my Beatle instrument collecting is now unofficially official, I've now found myself wanting to get as close as possible by virtue of this particular listening experience. I got the Elitist Casino and not the American-made version, but that's okay. But the bass on Abbey Road and Pepper represents major landmarks in rock bass history. Paul said himself that back in the Hamburg days, it wasn't cool to play bass. The bass player was always the fat guy who couldn't sing and stood in the back behind the drums. Paul redefined all that, if for no one else but himself. In the process, he managed to turn a few heads.

I want to hear the TBT version of AR a few dozen more times along side the commercial version to make an intelligent assessment. This epiphany is slow to unfold... I'll keep you posted!

[zed]

I got my VOX amPlug today, finally.

My first impressions are very good. This thing sounds marvelous. It sounds good going through the headphones but sounds even better when played through my Fender Blues Jr. It's really fantastic!

I played along with some Beatles tunes and the sound was so right on that it could have been part of the record. VOX has done a great job in developing this technology. As far as I am concerned, this ain't no gimic. This is VOX, once again, at the forefront of the technology, and making a great and affordable product. This thing is 100% analog, so the distortion has the warm analog sound that you would expect, even when you have tone set to its brightest... it becomes as bright as can be, but the distortion is still nicely rounded and sounds completely pleasing to the ears.

For $40 you can't go wrong.

Only shortcomings are that the thing likes to pop out of the guitar, so I had to use an elastic band and one of the guitar knobs to keep it from falling out during the middle of playing. Also, it does not have a phono output jack... just a headphone mini. Therefore you will need an adaptor in order to play it through an amp, or to go into your pre-amp or DI box.

Gonna go out and buy myself some rechargeable AAA batteries and a charger... but it comes with batteries which should last about 7 hours.

[Frodo]

I got my VOX amPlug today, finally.

My first impressions are very good. This thing sounds marvelous. It sounds good going through the headphones but sounds even better when played through my Fender Blues Jr. It's really fantastic!

I played along with some Beatles tunes and the sound was so right on that it could have been part of the record. VOX has done a great job in developing this technology. As far as I am concerned, this ain't no gimic. This is VOX, once again, at the forefront of the technology, and making a great and affordable product. This thing is 100% analog, so the distortion has the warm analog sound that you would expect, even when you have tone set to its brightest... it becomes as bright as can be, but the distortion is still nicely rounded and sounds completely pleasing to the ears.

For $40 you can't go wrong.

No disagreement from the Shire. I love this thing and hope to lay some test tracks with it in DP soon.

Only shortcomings are that the thing likes to pop out of the guitar, so I had to use an elastic band and one of the guitar knobs to keep it from falling out during the middle of playing. Also, it does not have a phono output jack... just a headphone mini. Therefore you will need an adaptor in order to play it through an amp, or to go into your pre-amp or DI box.

Aha-- this was exactly my peave-ette which led me to the cheapie solution of running a lead from the guitar into a female 1/4" adapter so that the device could sit tabletop-- then running the aux out into the computer. No biggie, tho.

Gonna go out and buy myself some rechargeable AAA batteries and a charger... but it comes with batteries which should last about 7 hours.

Rechargeables-- another good solution. In a pinch the high-tech Energizer E2 Lithiums are brilliant-- even better than the coppertops and the E2 Titaniums.

If you stumble across a better-than-average rechargeable, let us know!!

[zed]

Rechargeables-- another good solution. In a pinch the high-tech Energizer E2 Lithiums are brilliant-- even better than the coppertops and the E2 Titaniums.

If you stumble across a better-than-average rechargeable, let us know!!

I am no battery expert, but what I have gathered is that NiMH rechargeables are the best option, and I think the higher the number of mAh the better. I recently bought a bunch of Energizer 2500mAh NiMH batteries and they seem to have a good charge length... my camera probably lasts twice as long as it did with my previous batteries.

If I find out more, I'll let you know.

[Frodo]

Very good, Z.

I'm really glad that you got your amPlug without having to wait too long for it.

Happy strumming!

[zed]

I just got back from a Fab Four concert, here in Vancouver. Those are four talented guys, and the John Lennon character is the closest I have ever heard to the real thing. He has it completely nailed!!

While I loved the show, and always enjoy hearing Beatles music, I have to say that I was a teensy bit disappointed in the set list. There was too much early Beatle stuff, and then right as we got through all the early Beatle pieces, and were right on the verge of something from Rubber Soul, the intermission hit... and they came back afterwards all dressed up in Sgt. Pepper attire. They completely skipped Rubber Soul and Revolver, which are two of my favorites.

I have always had tastes which are a little different from the mainstream, and it seems that this even carries over into my preference for Beatles songs. These guys played most of the Beatles songs I didn't really want to hear, and skipped all the ones that I did. All the token pieces from Sgt. Pepper... but again, not the ones I would have preferred to hear, like Getting Better and Good Morning, Good Morning.

If I was in control of the setlist, here are some of the songs I would have selected:

I Feel Fine
Rain
Ticket To Ride
I Need You
Norwegian Wood
Think For Yourself
I'm Looking Through You
If I Needed Someone
Here, There and Everywhere
Dr. Robert
Getting Better
Good Morning, Good Morning
You're Mother Should Know
I Am The Walrus
Hello Goodbye

INTERMISSION

Hey Bulldog
Baby You're A Rich Man
Dear Prudence
Happiness is a Warm Gun
Julia
Why Don't We Do It In The Road?
Sexy Sadie
Martha My Dear
Savoy Truffle
Oh! Darling
I Want You
Dig a Pony
One After 909
I've Got a Feeling
Let it Be (instead of Hey Jude)

Now that would be a good set list, just for starters. Unfortunately, these are the songs that rarely get played by the tribute bands.

Anyone else have any comments or suggestions? Wanna start a tribute band?