So when are you going to upgrade to DP8??

[Frodo]

Yes, there are small but decisive ways apps can get beyond a *strict* 4GB limit, but it's important not to confuse that with a single 64-bit app running in a 64-bit kernel accessing, say, 32-GB of physical RAM. I think that conundrum contributes to the "why should I bother" line of thinking. It's great to see 5GB instead of 2.5GB being accessed. It's quite another thing to see all the RAM in your computer available to be put to good use.

Where do you get that info?
All articles I've found clearly state that 64bit apps running in 32bit kernel can use just as much memory as 64bit apps running over 64bit kernel.
For example this one:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4485/back ... -review/21

FL-- I read the article. I just take issue with some of it.

Core 2 Duo-equipped Macs that don’t support OS X’s 64-bit kernel or 64-bit EFI can still run 64-bit apps, which can address more than 4GB of RAM.

My Mac has 64-bit everything except for the ability to boot the 64-bit kernel. I've also tried a number of tests in 64-bit Logic within my 32-bit kernel, and I'm just not coming up with the numbers to support this on my system.

Now. Perhaps a few things must be clarified. The article *was* a review of Lion. Perhaps Lion opens some functionality that Snow Leopard does not. Perhaps Lion opens up certain functionality on later model Macs that Snow Leopard does not.

Not everyone uses Lion. Not everyone has a Mac from 2010 or later.

I'm not trying to be dense, unread, nor pessimistic. But much hinges on what model Mac you have and which version of OSX you're running.

If you've seen your machine access *all* of your physical RAM with 64-bit apps in the 32-bit kernel, please post those results. It would really help.

Thanks.

[kgdrum]

OK I started threads about this on GS & VI-control, hopefully someone who actually knows the answers to these questions will respond.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I know ALL the answers. Just not the right ones.

[kgdrum]

we all know that, you are a credit to all tools.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Lifetime guarantee to rust.

[Shooshie]

This...

Ok, I've taken the liberty to quote "this" so that we don't have to run over there to look at it. I trust that Native Instruments will recognize the good faith of this quote and not gripe about copyrights:

[Note: color added by Shooshie for emphasis]
Kernel mode (32-bit kernel mode vs. 64-bit kernel mode)

All installations of Mac OS 10.5 or 10.6 on Apple computers produced before mid of 2010 start in 32-bit kernel mode by default. Apple computers produced later may start in 64-bit kernel mode by default, depending on the model (e.g., Mac Pro Mid 2010).
Users can activate an optional 64-bit or 32-bit kernel mode through a special key combination during the boot process by holding a special key combination.
The 64-bit kernel mode allows the operation of both 32-bit applications as well as 64-bit applications. The 32-bit kernel mode also allows the operation of applications in 32-bit as well as 64-bit mode.
Note that this does not apply for drivers: A 32-bit driver cannot be used in 64-bit kernel mode. A 64-bit driver for your hardware device is required when running in 64-bit kernel mode.

If the driver of your NI hardware product is not yet compatible with 64-bit kernel mode it is recommended to start your Mac OS X in 32-bit kernel mode.

Applications and plug-ins (32-bit versions vs. 64-bit versions)

If an application or plug-in supports 32-bit mode or 64-bit mode or both modes depends on its code type. Applications and plug-ins can run in 32-bit or in 64-bit mode independently from the kernel mode.

Applications
Since Mac OS 10.5 applications (i.e., a standalone or a host sequencer) can be operated in 64-bit mode, predicted the code type of the application supports 64-bit mode. When an application supports both 32-bit and 64-bit modes, the Finder Info Window of this application allows a selection to open the application alternatively in 32-bit mode.

Plug-Ins
If a plug-in supports 32-bit mode or 64-bit mode or both modes depends on the code type of the plug-in. A 64-bit plug-in can only be operated in 64-bit mode if the host sequencer is running in 64-bit mode. If the host is running in 32-bit mode, only those plug-ins which are capable of running in 32-bit mode can be used.
A host running in 64-bit mode can natively operate plug-ins in 64-bit mode only. Some host sequencers, when run in 64-bit mode, allow to utilize 32-bit plug-ins via a “32-bit bridge” though. Please note that this method is considered as not supported by NI plug-ins, as the 32-bit bridge platform has not been tested. In order to use plug-ins from Native Instruments which are not yet available as 64-bit versions it is recommended to operate the host sequencer in 32-bit mode.

First of all, let's get one thing straight: booting your computer into 32 bit mode does not mean it won't run 64 bit mode for apps. A 32 bit kernel definitely can run 64 bit apps. Mine does it every day. The thing we're concerned with here is drivers.

Take a look at the part about drivers (in red print) This says that 32 bit and 64 bit mode can run in either 32 bit or 64 bit kernel mode. Either way in either kernel. So, "mode" means one thing for kernels and another thing for apps. That is, "32 bit kernel mode" does not preclude 64 bit app modes.

The difference is in the drivers. If you've got a 32 bit kernel running, then you have to run 32 bit drivers (system extensions). Likewise, for 64 bits; 64 bit kernel uses 64 bit extensions or drivers.

So, the question comes down to this:
Will DP8 run in 64 bit mode with a 32 bit driver? If it will do that, then the vast majority of us will be able to use it in 64 bit mode, running 64 bit plugins, and accessing greater than 4GB RAM. And by "greater than 4GB" we mean all the RAM you want to throw at it, up to about 80GB. (there are other reasons why a 32 bit kernel will have trouble running more than about 80 to 100 GB RAM, not related to the 4GB limit.)

Even in 32 bit kernels, if DP will run in 64 bit mode, it will run 64 bit plugins. The plugins depend on the host. The host is DP. So, again it comes down to whether the 32bit drivers will allow a 64bit DP to operate. If so, we're good all the way through the plugins.

I've been saying all along that I thought it was going to come down to a driver issue, and it appears that is the case. So, the new question, and as far as I can tell the ONLY question, is whether a 32 bit Kernel supporting a 32 bit driver can then run a 64 bit app that depends on that driver. Since the driver is basically telling the hardware how to connect the app to the various ports and hardware, Core Audio, etc., but is not actually reading the RAM and all that, it appears to me that DP could run in 64 bits without caring what its drivers are doing.

But we must have someone who can definitively answer THAT QUESTION, and that question only.

Shooshie

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Thanks Shoosh. $10,000?

[kgdrum]

Well the thread I started about running 64bit apps in a 32bit kernel is starting to get some interesting responses @ VI-control
I'm still hopeful that someone like Eric Persing answers here, I want to hear confirmation from some developers, I will keep everyone posted.
maybe FL and others that will be in the 32bit kernel will enjoy this afterall
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... e4f20ca5d9" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[MIDI Life Crisis]

The nice thing is that this too shall pass. DP864 will either require that sum of us replace our machines or not.

[zed]

But we must have someone who can definitively answer THAT QUESTION, and that question only.

With all due respect, that is not the only question that is of interest to me. Why narrow it down to the single question "Will DP8 run in 64 bit mode with a 32 bit driver?" That is a great question for those determined and hoping to run DP8 in a 64 bit kernel.

For those hoping to run DP8 in a 32 bit kernel, there are other questions in regards to memory limits and how that relates to the OS installed, and/or the particular Mac model. We all need to know what our options are going to be, and if the past is any example, there will be a bunch of different results and requirements for users based on the particulars of their setup.

FWIW, I have a 64 bit capable Mac, and I'm booted in 64 bit and I am definitely noticing slower screen draws, and seeing black and white squares when I open Preview images, before the actual image shows up (and this with a brand new replacement ATI graphics card). Things were quicker in 32 bit. I may be able to remedy this... but I may also want to simply work in 32 bit if memory limitations are not an issue with my setup. It all remains to be seen. There are still lots of important questions that remain unanswered definitively.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

+1 on the squares and redraw issues including occasional greyed out screens and poor performance in Safari. Still have to clear cache when I get a few minutes.

[zed]

+1 on the squares and redraw issues including occasional greyed out screens and poor performance in Safari. Still have to clear cache when I get a few minutes.

Please keep track of what you do, so that you can share the remedy if you find one! So far that is the only thing about the 64-bit kernel that is noticeably different. That and the startup time.

[kgdrum]

Zed re; video funkiness we have both noticed like screen redraws etc...
Just in case we both have the same video card , I have the ATI Radian HD 2600 in my Mac.
I just went to what i thought was the ATI site and they have new drivers for 64 bit and it looks like they were just released January 26th 2012
I guess this might be the fix ,I haven't installed yet but I probably will.
I need to look at this a bit more,I am worried if updated,would the vid card work if I switched back to the 32bit kernel etc....


EDIT*looking at the link it was actually a 3rd party site with windows drivers, and they were charging $30 for a driver update lol,never mind for now .
off to hunt for the real ATI site.

[Dan Worley]

I'm going to take a guess (or make my wish) and say that DP8 (64-bit) will run nicely within the 32-bit kernel and it will be able to access well beyond 4GB of RAM.

I will not get a new Mac right now. The only reason I don't have a Mac that supports the 64-bit kernel is, when I bought this one new, the dealer switched on me and shipped me one that had been on the shelf for, I think it was, 18 months. It may have even have been used and they sold it as new. I found that out a year after I got it when I went to use Applecare and there was a problem with the serial number. Apple figured it out for me. I was quite upset to find that out, and then find out it wouldn't boot to 64-bit. But it's been a very good machine so I didn't push the issue. So now, I don't want to be stuck and have to buy a new Pro. There's no new Pros to buy right now, anyway.

[zed]

Zed re; video funkiness we have both noticed like screen redraws etc...
Just in case we both have the same video card , I have the ATI Radian HD 2600 in my Mac.

That's mine too... an ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT which is an exact replacement for the one in my 2008 MacPro which started to act up and couldn't support 2 monitors anymore. It was more than $100 cheaper than buying a more current and more powerful graphics card.

Please do let me know if you discover some 64-bit drivers for it. I'm not sure what you will find since they don't make this model anymore. Presumably I got some of Apple's new old stock because I wanted to replace my card with the exact same thing.

I see that both of my displays are "32-bit colour". Not sure if that has anything to do with it. But I doubt it.