Cockos, Reaper, and Justin Frankel

[Michael Canavan]

How the hell is selling your DAW for $40 or $120(?) not a legit business model, or based on piracy? Apple gives away Garageband virtually for free. These guys are growing a large user base, then they'll reel them in. There is nothing illegit about it. Phone companies give the cell phones away for free, then charge for the service. Nomad Factory Plugins just sold me about a year ago a collection of plugins for about $350 that normally would have sold for $2500. What does Waves think about that? They've been steadily lowering their prices, which were inflated like the Hindenburg to begin with.

The thing we don't like about C•••••' business model for R••••• is that it's working, and it's taking attention away from DP. You do not respond to that by yelling "Unfair! Unfair!" You respond by doing something that gets people on YOUR side. The handwriting is on the wall. It says "lower your prices. Get a mass of users dependent on you. Gently start squeezing them when they love you so much they don't care anymore."

Personally my opinion is that you don't really want to lower your prices too much, Apple could do that with Logic, well, because it's Apple? What I would like to see MOTU do is take a step away from the competition and actually make all it's internal pieces similar to full fledged stand alone apps: The score editing on par with Sibulus, the two track editor on par with Peak or DSP Quattro, the Beat Detection as easy to use and full featured as Recycle etc.
Basically do what IMO the Logic team should have done with Logic Studio, and make DP a fully self contained production environment. Not that it isn't already, but bragging rights are a good thing, and boasting that your internal features are comparable to stand lone Apps is pretty slick marketing technique IMO.
Sure a decent lowering of the price, to jab the other DAWs a bit, shave 25% or so, Knock it down to $300 and crossgrades to $200 and you'd get a lot of people, but only if new features were added, otherwise the perception is of a sinking ship.
Again, they should seriously think about a 30 day trial demo, I think of fast growing DAWs and it's either Logic because of Apples aggressive branding, or Live etc. that have unrestricted demo periods.
Plus some video walk throughs on their site. Quick Time animations or OK, but not enough, people want to see it in action, and it's take on the arrangement page is so unique among DAWs it's needed IMO.
Again, at least the option to view and edit MIDI data as objects like every other DAW out there. <-- My favorite vision of this is being able to assign a hot key to it, so MIDI data in the Sequence Editor for instance can be viewed classically or objectively at the press of a key command. The option to snap to grid MIDI data, though these two are more about winning converts from other DAWs.

With things changing all around us, radically, why wouldn't we expect there to be some change in the way DAWs and other pro-software are written and/or marketed? Why wouldn't we want to be at the forefront of it?

I dunno? From what I can tell I'm the average age on this forum, mid forties, this is completely the opposite at the Ableton forums say, where I'm one of the older people there. I think a lot of people get upset (rightly so) about aggressive capitalism with sketchy ethics, but no one can preach about it like a middle aged man!

[Shooshie]

I don't consider what you said to me as an insult. Misguided, maybe - but insult - never. I don't get insulted that easily.

Nobody bitch-slapped anybody here. And I'm not bruised or battered. You just got a bruised ego from being taken to task for posting certain things and refusing to see that maybe what you posted had some major problems with the subject matter. And I'm not bruised or battered by you as it takes a better person than you to do that. So the thread didn't work out like you wanted it to do - big freakin' deal!

Yes, it is a big freakin' deal when you completely derail what may be an important discussion, because you'd rather bellow like some misguided patriot when your patriotism isn't even what's at stake. ("patriot" being used loosely here, referring to your refusal to let go of the piracy thing so that we could discuss the actual subject) What you did is an old political trick used to block discussion so that the subject never actually gets on the table, but is replaced by holier-than-thou protestations that are not even relevant to that discussion.

It takes a BETTER person than me to bruise or batter you? A saint maybe? Call it what you want, buddy, but you pushed my buttons a few too many times, and I slapped you back. You're on the defensive, so it must have stung just a little.

Shooshie
PS: I'll bet you on the target range, I can hit more targets with fewer shots in less time than you, and I don't even brag about guns in my sig! You're talking to a country boy!

[n2mpujack]

I've always responded with civility in this thread, whether to you or to others. You were the one that couldn't see that, elsewise James would have deleted my posts and banned me. To me your definition of civility is everyone agreeing with you, and that's not going to happen. And the sooner you see that the better off we'll all be.

Admit it, Jack. You don't want to discuss this. So why are you? Have you read the recent posts that get back to the original intent of the thread? You may think it civil to imply that I condone piracy. You may think it civil to tell me what I should and shouldn't post, even when YOU hijacked it from its original intent. You may think it's civil to hijack a discussion and treat the original poster with disrespect, writing as if this was some kind of patriotic pep-rally, when that sort of thing is totally irrelevant to the original post, and even after being asked to avoid leading the discussion in that direction. You may think it civil to tell me that I should have expected it to go this way (maybe if I'd known you better I would have), and to tell me I was "rubbing salt into [James's] wounds." I did nothing of a kind. You did that by turning this into a pirate thread, when piracy was not even on the agenda.

I was hijacked, and then you swift-boated me. That means you admonished me for something I didn't even do. It's all in print. You did these things. If that's your idea of civility, then you must live in a world of chaos. Even now you seem to be refusing to acknowledge the subject matter. It's not the subject you are disagreeing with. It's another subject altogether: what we might learn from the younger generation if we are going to continue to compete with them on a legitimate basis.

I don't have the answers. That's why I opened it up as a discussion. But the thread was not about piracy. It was about new information i had just learned in Time Magazine (namely, who the author of R••••• is) and how that changes things. It means that a goodly portion of the world is going to be looking at what he does and taking him very seriously. We'd be fools not to pay attention and learn how to adapt. Steve Jobs has done it, both in creating iTunes and in pricing Logic and associated software at formerly ridiculously low levels. What has MOTU done? Well, aside from making DP an incredible app that's worth thousands and thousands of dollars, for those with money to pay it, they've done almost nothing that the younger generation would see and respond to.

Don't you think it's worth talking about this and to quit trying to make it about something we all hate?

Shooshie

I was not the first person to hijack this thread - that happened way before I entered into the fray. And I didn't start the pirate thing either. I do acknowledge the subject matter and am willing to discuss it - I just happen to take the pessimistic side. Never disrespected you in this thread either. Maybe not agreed with you, but dissing you - never.

And like I said before, it's the sad reality of the internet that threads don't always go as one would like them - they take on a life of their own.

[Phil O]

How the hell is selling your DAW for $40 or $120(?) not a legit business model, or based on piracy?

This is based on the premise that C.....'s user base is largely those who have not paid for it (piracy). C.... knows this, and in fact C.... encourages it with their lack of copy protection and once-a-day pop-up screen. In fact it is society's recent propensity towards piracy that has spurred this business model.

I happen to believe this premise, but of course if I'm wrong, my whole argument goes down the crapper.

Phil

[n2mpujack]

I don't consider what you said to me as an insult. Misguided, maybe - but insult - never. I don't get insulted that easily.

Nobody bitch-slapped anybody here. And I'm not bruised or battered. You just got a bruised ego from being taken to task for posting certain things and refusing to see that maybe what you posted had some major problems with the subject matter. And I'm not bruised or battered by you as it takes a better person than you to do that. So the thread didn't work out like you wanted it to do - big freakin' deal!

Yes, it is a big freakin' deal when you completely derail what may be an important discussion, because you'd rather bellow like some misguided patriot when your patriotism isn't even what's at stake. ("patriot" being used loosely here, referring to your refusal to let go of the piracy thing so that we could discuss the actual subject) What you did is an old political trick used to block discussion so that the subject never actually gets on the table, but is replaced by holier-than-thou protestations that are not even relevant to that discussion.

It takes a BETTER person than me to bruise or batter you? A saint maybe? Call it what you want, buddy, but you pushed my buttons a few too many times, and I slapped you back. You're on the defensive, so it must have stung just a little.

Shooshie
PS: I'll bet you on the target range, I can hit more targets with fewer shots in less time than you, and I don't even brag about guns in my sig! You're talking to a country boy!

Nope - not stung at all. Defensive - never. No retreat, no surrender.

You slapped me? Hardly. Takes more than you've got.

[James Steele]

I can already think of one way that MOTU might put the slip around R•••••: offer it for free for a couple of months (download only) or for the cost of printing the manual and shipping, plus a few bucks, and get a larger user base, but make them pay for upgrades.

Hopefully they'll PAY for the upgrades. But the main thing I take away from that is the slippery slope of price wars and giving away software will have officially arrived, ushered in by Frankel. I'm not optimistic about the end game in all of that.

...accepting that kids usually find DP to be too complex at first, until they learn the basic premise behind it. (IOW, it's not like Logic).

Not really related, but for the life of me I don't understand how people can find Logic EASIER to grasp than DP. Maybe it's the dumbed down approach of "creating" music in which your basic building blocks aren't notes, but loops, canned grooves, etc? Dunno.

It's not a new strategy. Printer companies have been using it for years. Sell the printer for nothing, then charge out the wazzoo for ink.

If DP is MOTU's "printer," what is their ink? Upgrade fees? I just hope they don't have to lay anyone off in order to try and play this new game. I'd be concerned that having given away copies of DP (should they remove CP to match Reaper?) they'll have got a whole bunch of customers that will scream bloody murder about paying $195 for an upgrade. That is if MOTU knows who they are. Because even Cockos has NO IDEA who is using Reaper, apart from IP addresses that have downloaded their demo, unless they pay for it or register it. So how do you distribute the upgrade? Maybe you do it like Cockos. You just put THAT on your server for download. If it's not copy-protected, then EVERYONE can upgrade without paying the new fee. So MOTU would likely have to keep CP in order to both get users to register (so they know who is eligible to upgrade and who to market to), and to stand a chance to make sure those who they hope to "convert" to paying customers by selling an upgrade actually buy it instead of just getting it elsewhere. It's interesting that this ties in a little to the other discussion. MOTU is the band that's giving away the first CD to get fans, then trying to convince them to pay them for the next one.

So to me it seems like the one area where MOTU and other vendors cannot effectively match Reaper is to remove CP. I would re-iterate that my problem with, and dare I say CONTEMPT for, Cockos is not the price cutting. It's because their pricing is meaningless because it's not an HONEST price. If people actually had to pay $225 to buy it and register it, then I'd be standing here waving the free market flag as much as the next red-blooded capitalist. I think my political leanings surprise no one here. But having no copy protection at all and essentially GIVING AWAY a DAW that you concede continues to improve and make big strides (garnering media attention and monthly SOS feature as DP is relegated to 4x/year) is hardly PLAYING FAIR.

So in the end, and I have stipulated that my policy is largely symbolic and unlikely to have much effect, nevertheless until I feel Cockos decided to play fair I will let SOS give them publicity and be complicit in pushing this unfairness, but you won't see either their company name or their product name on this site. That is my personal conviction. I don't expect that everyone will agree with it, but I have felt strongly enough about it to do it and take the heat and ridicule for it. If anybody else like Kubi feels embarrassed to be part of this forum due to my actions, they can do what he did and simply ask for their account to be deleted. There were no heated words between Kubi and I privately. He asked to be deleted without any commentary. I don't think he did so to try and elicit an apology or appeal for him to reconsider. I think he'd know better.

I'm likely to do some things with this site that aren't going to be universally popular. Not everyone has to agree with it. If someone disagrees so strongly that they feel it's worth deleting their membership for, that's their business. You don't need to be a member to read this board anyway.

[bongo_x]

I say this all the time, but again, a lot of the problem with the various points of view is that some people have it firmly in their heads that X is worth Z, and when X sells for over or under Z it upsets them. This is completely a misguided idea in a capitalist economy. X is worth what someone pays for it, and only when the check has cleared. DP is not "worth" $400, but I was willing to pay that much for it. Maybe later I won’t be. Reaper is not underpriced because it’s $40, or $.50.

If you make cars you have to pay for the cost of producing each car from the selling price, you can give some away, but you still have to make a total that pays for all cars made. Data (software, music, etc.) is like spam. You get more spam than junk mail because junk mail costs something to produce.

When Microsoft put out the Xbox they sold it at a loss. There’s a million examples, that’s the "razors and blades" model Shooshie was alluding to. I’m sure some think that’s unfair, but that’s the Free Market. The difference is you can sell 10 copies of a DAW for $400 or 100 copies for $40 and you make pretty much the same profit since there’s no product to pay for, you’re just making copies. You’re not selling at a loss, even if you are undercutting the competition.

That is a new business model. We (as a society) are still trying to figure that out.

bb

[Shooshie]

Nope - not stung at all. Defensive - never. No retreat, no surrender.

You slapped me? Hardly. Takes more than you've got.

Ha! Then what we've got is two bulls in a little pen.

But you acknowledged that you are pessimistic about the subject matter. Thanks for joining the actual discussion at long last! I don't expect to be able to control the outcome of a thread, but you've got to admit that what happened here was not just seeing it go a different direction; this turned into a virtual beating, and I was the whipping boy. I was pissed as I've never been in the history of this forum, and while circumstances necessitate my getting back to making music instead of blabbering this forum, I'm by no means cooled down. You say you haven't disrespected me, but I beg to differ. This has been about the worst insult to me, personally, that I've ever experienced in a forum by people who I'd normally call friends. Yeah, I feel like I have plenty of reason to be riled up. But I'd really rather let the subject "drift" to its original intent, which we had begun to do, and hopefully will continue to do.

So you are pessimistic, eh? Pessimistic of What? In the context of my original post, what are you pessimistic about? Are you pessimistic that Reaper has something to teach us? Are you pessimistic that MOTU will find a strategy of growing its user base among the younger generation? Are you pessimistic that we even NEED to grow our user base?

Why would you not believe that to compete with the younger generation you have to learn their ways? As one of the leaders of that generation, one who has already changed the world, especially the younger portion of it, why do you think that Frankel is not worth watching? I say he's not only worth watching, but that he's got quite a few people scared. That's exactly who we should be watching.

Shooshie

[James Steele]

It's your site, James, but I'm in favor of lifting the ban.

On the word replacements? It's not up for a vote. That's the policy and it stays until such time as Cockos decides to "play fair" and not ride piracy to build a user base.

As for Kubi, if all he requested was what we have seen posted here, banning him was a bit of a stretch, IMO.

Would people please READ what I have said???? What must I do to head off this disinformation? Let me slow it down:

I DID NOT BAN, KUBI!!!!!!!

One more time for the dyslexics this now it reading:

I DID NOT BAN KUBI. HE ASKED ME TO DELETE HIM!!!!

There is NO BAN. Kubi can and probably still does read the board. He can rejoin at any time if he wishes. I have nothing personal against him whatsoever. If I curled up into a little ball and "went fetal" every time I have had someone tell me I do a bad job here or how I run the board is ridiculous, I'd never leave the house. Just mention me or this board at GS. Ask me if I give a cold rat's ass?

[n2mpujack]

So to me it seems like the one area where MOTU and other vendors cannot effectively match R••••• is to remove CP. I would re-iterate that my problem with, and dare I say CONTEMPT for, C••••• is not the price cutting. It's because their pricing is meaningless because it's not an HONEST price. If people actually had to pay $225 to buy it and register it, then I'd be standing here waving the free market flag as much as the next red-blooded capitalist. I think my political leanings surprise no one here. But having no copy protection at all and essentially GIVING AWAY a DAW that you concede continues to improve and make big strides (garnering media attention and monthly SOS feature as DP is relegated to 4x/year) is hardly PLAYING FAIR.

So in the end, and I have stipulated that my policy is largely symbolic and unlikely to have much effect, nevertheless until I feel C••••• decided to play fair I will let SOS give them publicity and be complicit in pushing this unfairness, but you won't see either their company name or their product name on this site. That is my personal conviction. I don't expect that everyone will agree with it, but I have felt strongly enough about it to do it and take the heat and ridicule for it. If anybody else like Kubi feels embarrassed to be part of this forum due to my actions, they can do what he did and simply ask for their account to be deleted. There were no heated words between Kubi and I privately. He asked to be deleted without any commentary. I don't think he did so to try and elicit an apology or appeal for him to reconsider. I think he'd know better.

I'm likely to do some things with this site that aren't going to be universally popular. Not everyone has to agree with it. If someone disagrees so strongly that they feel it's worth deleting their membership for, that's their business. You don't need to be a member to read this board anyway.

James:
Thank you for your words of wisdom. You're a much appreciated and needed voice trying to fight the good fight with more supporters than you realize. Unfortunately there's far too few people who will take a principled stand anymore.

[Shooshie]

If DP is MOTU's "printer," what is their ink? Upgrade fees?

That's a good question, and one that I've been thinking about quite a bit. VI libraries like VSL offer so many permutations of what they sell, once they get you hooked, there is no end to what you can find to buy. Maybe MOTU could start focusing on "extras" that you can add for a price. Maybe price these extras so that buying them all would put you about in the price range of the original DP before discounts. That way we wouldn't be losing value, but newcomers could choose how much value they want. Maybe there could be a "Pro" version that offers greater connectivity to other DAWs, Final Cut Pro, more features like streamers and so forth for film cue hits, or maybe TWO channel (stereo) pitch tuning, and that sort of thing. Maybe free tech support for fully paid versions. Maybe a full manual, as opposed to a very basic, chopped down manual for the discounts. For that matter, discounts for downloaded versions could just use the Help files already present. Manuals cost extra.

Then there are Mach Five, MX-4, Ethno, and MSI. With some overhaul, these could be offered as bundles in the "pro" version.

I'm just throwing these out as discussion. I don't know if this is even the right way to go. I'm just suggesting that we watch Reaper more closely, knowing who is behind it now. We may or may not learn something. Obviously, I'm in complete agreement with you, James, about the need for Cockos to add a nag screen or something that enforces their pricing better than it is now, but I also realize that they could care less what we think, and they'll continue to do it as they wish. They're growing a large user base (tens of thousands so far, it said in Time), and only time will tell if that will work out for them when they start charging more.

But it appears that we have to do something!

Shooshie

[davedempsey]

I dislike the Reaper business model for pretty much the same reason that I dislike short-selling of stock - and yes I agree neither is technically illegal. Both are somewhat repugnant given they are predicated on destruction to gain advantage and display a complete lack of concern for the interests of others.

Allowing the DAW to be downloaded with no time limited demo, no copy protection and no way of ensuring the payment of the rather inadequate $40 is in my opinion a deliberate attempt to run on, take advantage of and increase the incidence of the trend towards piracy. I do not doubt that, overwhelmingly, the cost of development of this software is paid for by Frankel, not the user base. In what way is this different to massive tariffs as a trade barrier? How does this qualify as fair play in a free market?

I am reminded of the Robber Barons of middle Europe who illegally levied taxes on all who carried trade goods on the rivers. They could do so because of the position of their castles and fortresses allowing them to extract payments for passage and free use of the rivers - use of the rivers cost the Robber Barons nothing of course.

Turn that completely on it's head - you now have Reaper to replace the Robber Barons, Frankels private wealth is the fortress, the internet is the river, the new Reaper Baron gives it all away at his own expense and thereby lessens the potential for traders to continue plying their trade on the river. This may be legal, but it may also be product dumping, in which case it may not be legal.

[Shooshie]

Unfortunately there's far too few people who will take a principled stand anymore.

You do realize, of course, that I've taken a very principled stand, and have had to fight for it, because you want to turn the discussion into what it's not. If you want to argue that piracy is a bad thing, you will find me on the same side as you. But this thread is about something that could be very important to DP, and I've taken a lonely and principled stand in trying to get the actual subject into the discussion instead of going along with beating your irrelevant straw man. For that, I've been admonished by someone who apparently doesn't even know what I'm talking about. Don't you think it's time to drop the lone patriot facade and actually give the REAL subject a chance?

Shooshie

[Phil O]

If DP is MOTU's "printer," what is their ink? Upgrade fees?

That's a good question, and one that I've been thinking about quite a bit.

What about educational pricing? A lot can be done with this to expand user base. Does MOTU offer this? If so, there's one area where prices could be adjusted considerably without disturbing their pro pricing.

Phil

[Shooshie]

I dislike the R••••• business model for pretty much the same reason that I dislike short-selling of stock - and yes I agree neither is technically illegal. Both are somewhat repugnant given they are predicated on destruction to gain advantage and display a complete lack of concern for the interests of others.

Allowing the DAW to be downloaded with no time limited demo, no copy protection and no way of ensuring the payment of the rather inadequate $40 is in my opinion a deliberate attempt to run on, take advantage of and increase the incidence of the trend towards piracy. I do not doubt that, overwhelmingly, the cost of development of this software is paid for by Frankel, not the user base. In what way is this different to massive tariffs as a trade barrier? How does this qualify as fair play in a free market?

I am reminded of the Robber Barons of middle Europe who illegally levied taxes on all who carried trade goods on the rivers. They could do so because of the position of their castles and fortresses allowing them to extract payments for passage and free use of the rivers - use of the rivers cost the Robber Barons nothing of course.

Turn that completely on it's head - you now have R••••• to replace the Robber Barons, Frankels private wealth is the fortress, the internet is the river, the new R••••• Baron gives it all away at his own expense and thereby lessens the potential for traders to continue plying their trade on the river. This may be legal, but it may also be product dumping, in which case it may not be legal.

So, how do you suggest that MOTU compete with this? The high road may end up being cold and lonely. I would never suggest removing copy protection! But what about an occasional fire sale?

I'd like to say that MOTU's quality would be enough, but the only people who truly appreciate the difference in quality are pretty advanced users. How do you build a NEW user base from people who literally cannot tell the difference between DP, Logic, Garageband and Reaper? It's not going to happen if we're charging $495, and they are charging $40. We can hope that they will learn about DAWs from using Reaper, then they'll want to upgrade to something more substantial for doing films, but how many people will this approach attract?

Further, pricing is not the only thing at stake here. Frankel is listening to his users, or so he says. This means he'll be rapidly adding features and making Reaper more powerful. It may behoove us to pay attention to what he's adding, for that will tell us what that market is telling HIM that they want in a DAW.

I would refuse to compromise DP with features that are infantile to experienced users, but we do not know what there will be, yet. I'm just saying that this is the one to watch.

Shooshie