Mixing a Gospel Choir

Noizemaker · Post by **Noizemaker** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:05 am

I'm working on this Gospel project that was given to me. They recorded their whole choir for template and then every singer went back to track independently on single mics for the purpose of flexibility. I'm just wondering (now that all the editing as been done) how to make the vocals seem further from the mics and more of a whole. I'm trying to get it to sound like the whole choir was recorded on one take from ambient mics instead of independentely.

m2 · Post by m2 » Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:40 am

well a choir sounds like a choir when they are all together. I [personally] would have never recorded each person on a solo mic. It's completely counter to what a choir does as an ensenble. It would be like recording each violin in a orchestra separately and then wanting it to sound like a section. Won't work. I'd use the group track [template] as the main recording and maybe sweeten with the a FEW of the solo mic stuff way back to maybe add some definition.

MattC · Post by **MattC** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 3:09 pm

Agreed - even if it requires re-tracking, recording them together's the only way to go with a choir. However, with a gospel choir and the extemporaneous soloing that tends to happen over the top, would probably be smart to have them record just the straight ensemble stuff, then have folks come back and throw down individually on any improv vocals.

I don't know what the instrumentation is, but I've had pretty good results putting together a subtle click/loop with a very bare-bones guide track, setting up a couple of monitors facing the choir, and having them sing to that. If you set it up right (right placement, right mics, some creative baffling, etc.) and keep the monitors as low as you can to give them time and pitch, the level of bleed into the choir mics is usually acceptable. Then you can get the rhythm section (and other instruments/soloists) nice and tight in the studio.

Good luck with it!

Matt

giles117 · Post by **giles117** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:42 am

The entire purpose of the individuals is to reinforce the choir. Gospel If it is the current style doesnt not like the choir in the background, but in your Face courtesy of Fred Hammond in the 90's

So you take your original tracks, the layer the new overdubs just slightlly in front of the existing vox. eq some of the harsher freq's out to soften them and "blend" them in with the rest of the choir.

We do it all the time this way and still have the bigness of a choir, but the more urban desire to have the choir in your face.

Times have changed gents. LOL

Plus these mixes sound better on AM Radio.

MattC · Post by **MattC** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:00 pm

I agree that the overdubs would be usable to bring the overall sound "forward" if blended well; in my mind, though, it would be tricky to get the right sound using ONLY the tracks of individual singers. As others had mentioned, of course, it depends on the style...I guess I was imagining sort of a "Brooklyn Tab" sound when you described it. It would be less necessary to record a whole choir together if you were going for more of a "CCM" sound I guess.

Just my thoughts...

Matt

giles117 · Post by **giles117** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:13 pm

A Agree, but he said Gospel, and In My Mind CCM and Gospel are two different musical arenas.....

When I think Gospel I think of all the artists I work with that have Choirs for days and the requests they give me for how to mix their choir sound.

Brooklyn Tab is a CCM style to me, not Gospel.

MattC · Post by **MattC** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:00 pm

Yeah, actually you're right about that...not a style I work in a lot, so I'm a little fuzzy on good examples of the sounds I'm thinking of. I'm just aware that sometimes the word "gospel" is used pretty broadly.

Matt

giles117 · Post by **giles117** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:26 am

Thats for certain, the word Gospel is used broadly. IMO anything that preaches Jesus and Him Crucified is technically Gospel. LOL But style wise it is generally the African American Urban Expression. (Trying to be politically correct. I just call myself a Black Man. Anyway.....)

SO for Black Gospel what I wrote is thier Forte'.

CCM Choir Gospel sound (LOL) is more of an Ambient Sound. (BTW my fav song by Brooklyn Tab is Faithful)

Gets to be fun. Now if the original poster would let us know which specific sub genre of music he is mixing then we can totally target our opinions.

Then you get real deep.

Detroit Gospel, Chicago Gospel, NY Gospel Bible Belt Gospel, SOuthern Gospel, Houston Gospel, LA Gospel. and so on. LOL.

Even the UK has it's own unique Gospel Mix sounds....... Lots to study. LOL.

MattC · Post by **MattC** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:38 am

Good info - when I hear the term "gospel" I definitely think of "black gospel" as the center of that style, though I'm aware others use it to describe a wider set of genres. It's been a long-time goal of mine to really learn that style from the inside out. As a pianist, I can fake it if I have to, but my jazz roots start showing through when I run out of tricks. I have some friends that really slam on gospel stuff...one of these days I'm gonna make 'em teach me the craft...

Peace,

Matt

EricNDallas · Post by **EricNDallas** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:03 pm

I agree your Fred Hammonds, Kirk Franklins, israels etc. the choir is definitely up front. they also seem to like them real big as far as spread and all the sections blended really well. Also watch the spread obvioulsy if the stereo spread was alto-tenor-soprano make sure your reinforcing dubs follow the same spread. But i guess that could be a matter of opinion. I live in Dallas and to me this is kind of like gospel central so about 40% of my work seems to be gospel

Noizemaker · Post by **Noizemaker** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:34 pm

Sorry guys, I've been out for a few days... Thanks for the replies though.
I guess I should have said a Black, Contemporary, Urban, Small Choir to be precise. (15 voices) They Record a dummy track, for the overdubs, and then Record all the sections individually to be able to pitch correct if necessary (yeah I know...

) and mix it REALLY CLOSE. It's been done and redone in the industry but for those who are not used to the style, I find Kirk Franklin's new Album entitled "Hero" pretty close to what I'm looking for.
I've tried to pan sections independent (tenor hard left, Altoes in the middle and Sopranoes Right) or to split the sections equally in the spectrum (one soprano right, one left, one center, then same for altoes and tenors).
To my ears, I'm not that far from what's been done in the industry but it's still sound a bit like separated takes to my ears. I've also tried to put everything back into a bus and through a gentle Reverb to give it a room effect but I'm still not convinced...

BTW I can't have the dummy track too close in the mix because it was not recorded properlly as it was only intended for... a dummy

At last, anyone have a suggestion to get rid of someone subtly knocking the mic while singing, not knowing that it would be recorded too... DAAAHHH!!!!

Thanks Guys

Noizemaker · Post by **Noizemaker** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:37 pm

MattC wrote:Good info - when I hear the term "gospel" I definitely think of "black gospel" as the center of that style, though I'm aware others use it to describe a wider set of genres. It's been a long-time goal of mine to really learn that style from the inside out. As a pianist, I can fake it if I have to, but my jazz roots start showing through when I run out of tricks. I have some friends that really slam on gospel stuff...one of these days I'm gonna make 'em teach me the craft...

Peace,

Matt

Not to be mean, but you can't fake Gospel, you have to live it!!!

EricNDallas · Post by **EricNDallas** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:49 pm

good to hear. i actually worked on that kirk album and if im not mistaken it was alto tenor soprano. The tenors always seem to be a little quiter so you can create a kind of semi circle depth. Most of the gospel I do the tenors are always in the center. As I tend to not frequent a lot of blcak gospel style churches I dunno why most people like it that way but that seems to be the preference. on that album choir tracking varied due to diff producing goals. but a lot of that album was a guide 2 tenors 2 altos 2 sopranos. and each section tracked independently in a smaller booth for a more in your face kind of sound. i think it worked out well. the exceptions would be broken hearted and the appeal( M/ S ) thing with a couple mics for solos.

giles117 · Post by **giles117** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:08 pm

Typically they place the tenors in the center of the choir stand (In my years of singing in the choir and recording and mixing them.)

We call 15 voice choir an ensemble. With the way they recorded it you have more of an R&B Style track (BGV's)

Now for clarity, how many tracks of each vocal do you have 15 voices Times what???? 30 tracks?? 60 Tracks????

and they bounced down to how many tracks?????

you can work this but you have to do a lot of detuning (Eventide Harmonizer type stuff) to create the natural rubs/chorusing you get in a choir type situation.

Fred is from my hometown (Detroti) and just recently relocated to Dallas... Very Familiar with what Raymond does and I am glad Fred started using engineers from Texas to mix his albums (Starting with Pages of Life) Much better mixes than the stuff pre 1997. I actually engineered some of the Commissioned Stuff as well. So I know how Mitch thinks as well.

For your BGV's did they track till they were darn near perfect or did they leave sonic erros that can be used to your mix advantage????

Noizemaker · Post by **Noizemaker** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:13 pm

Alright, nice to know I have the chance to be coached by some pros that are used this music. To me "HERO" is REALLY well produced. (A luxury we don't always have in Gospel...

)
After Double checking, I realized I made a mistake when I said Tenors/altoes/Sopranoes as Tenors have always been in the middle in every choir I've played in. So you're right EricNDallas. (Not That I doubted you...)

Now for clarity, how many tracks of each vocal do you have 15
voices Times what???? 30 tracks?? 60 Tracks????
and they bounced down to how many tracks?????

I have exactly 3Sop, 5Alt, 4Ten. Bounced Individually and then I have two Ambience mics by section. But Like I said before, the Ambience is not really workable.

you can work this but you have to do a lot of detuning (Eventide Harmonizer type stuff) to create the natural rubs/chorusing you get in a choir type situation

Yeah That's what I'm looking for: a rubbing fx of several voices together.

I took each section and put them into separate bus (Sop, Alt, Ten) then summing all of this into one Aux called choir. I've fed a bit of every section bus into a room reverb and a second send to a delay/Plate Reverb.

For the whole Choir aux, I ran it through Wave's "DOUBLER" plug-ins. I kinda like the way it makes it bigger but my only only problem with detuning is that I don't want my voices to sound too computerized or chorused. So what do you suggest for minimizing that chorus effect while keeping that widening effect? I tried to lower the detuning and added independant pre-delayon the doubler's fx voices.

For your BGV's did they track till they were darn near perfect or did they leave sonic erros that can be used to your mix advantage????

No the tracks are not perfect that's why The leader wanted me to do some pitch correcting. Do you imply that I should still mix the untuned stuff with what I've tuned???

Anyways thanks for the advices.