Specific ProTools > DP Questions

martian · Post by **martian** » Mon May 15, 2006 12:24 am

yeah but I sympathise with this emotion

why upgrade and give digi more money - when more than likely in 2 years they will drop the 002 and it'll be interface shoppign all over
'
Once you set up templates in DP seems good to go - name your bundles etc here and it's easy there after......

Reason has beeen rock solid for me in DP 4.61 -

I will install my upgrade to 5 probably tomorrow - after I finish this job (just boucing out the last reel now)

Start making window sets - u can even include tghings like the audio suite trikm reverse etc in them

so you can call up the reverse clip function etc with a keystroke....

I've been using DP everyday for about 4 weeks now- 12 hours aday - and it's crashed twice I think....

You obviously have some issues with loosing clips in PT - the last time that happened to me was using an 001 aswell!

muxlow · Post by **muxlow** » Mon May 15, 2006 12:36 am

Dubaifox, that's good to know that PT7 is working for you. Others on the DUC don't seem to be so lucky. By the by - and this isn't a loaded question - does PT7 support Tiger yet? What about Intel Macs? Is it a Universal Binary? I'm honestly curious...

dubaifox wrote:I really can't understand why you are going to spend the big cash to get a Motu Interface and DP, when you could get a 002r and then have all of these new features. Have you used DP before? We are talking a pretty major learning curve, and I gurantee you wont be free of bugs crashes and annoyances.

If Ford sold me a car that gave me half the trouble ProTools has since PT 6 for OS X came out, you can bet that my next car would NOT be a Ford. If the Chevy I bought sucked too, I'll find another maker. When all the options were exhausted, I'd pick the best of the worst.

Anecdote: I used to develop in Flash for a living. After Macromedia came out with an awful, awful version of Flash for OS X that made my life hell everytime I used it, I abandoned Flash, learned new skills and now rarely have to touch the mess. Life's too short to deal with garbage software. That's also why I use a Mac.

As for learning curves, I like learning new software. It's sick, I know, but I do

As for the expense, a Digi002 rack is over $1000 (going to bed; no time to look up $; correct me if I'm wrong). I'm going to spend about $1200 on a MOTU/DP rig. If I'm wrong - and I may be, no denying that - I'll sell the MOTU rig and probably come in a couple hundred bucks shy of a new Digi002. I'll probably come out ahead if I get a used one. I can live with that amount of risk.

dubaifox wrote:No offense, but you seem a little unrealistic in your expectations of a computer based DAW.

If you're willing to tolerate that list of problems I noted up there, you're a much more patient fox than I. Personally, I think it's "unrealistic" to continually support any company that consistently delivers shoddy goods. Pro engineers have to support Digi/PT. I don't, so I won't. Simple as that.

-----

One last reason for not sticking with PT: I'm not 100% convinced of their comittment to OS X. Avid can't be happy about Final Cut Pro killing their business model, PT doesn't seem to be embracing any OS X technologies (audio units, core audio, etc.), they're perpetually behind on OS updates, I don't think they've EVER participated in a MacWorld keynote speech, etc. etc. I don't want to buy into a ship just as the captain bores a hole through the belly.

I truly hope I'm wrong on this (it'd be a huge blow to Apple if I'm right), but my bets are hedged by going with MOTU, or even Logic.

With MOTU, as long as they're in business, I know they're committed to the platform. (right, MOTU?)

stephentayler · Post by **stephentayler** » Mon May 15, 2006 1:55 am

sdfalk wrote:I have both DP5 and PTLE7 as well.
Before 5 I would have agreed with the editing assesment.
With DP5 (and the new editing tools) I feel as comfortable editing audio in DP (if not even more
so) then I do In Protools.

I have been away for three weeks, and so I have only just had a brief go with DP5, and I have noticed that everything about DP is running much more snappily (start,stop, and editing) so I am convinced that with the new editing tools (being more akin to video editing tools) I shall be one happy puppy!!

I still treasure the pitch correction in PT. It allows you to shift pitch with NO time correction, in other words Varispeed, which is not available in DP.

Stephen

Phil Jeffers · Post by **Phil Jeffers** » Mon May 15, 2006 4:48 am

I'm still getting up to speed with DP & honestly haven't had to drive it hard, but so far am very pleased with it as a sturdy DAW. I use PT's 7 on my Mac G5 a lot for post work & sorry, but very, very rarely have any problems at all. I keep everything ship-shape on my drives etc. OS support can take a few weeks from Digi, but that's usually just going from 10.4.5 to 10.4.6 or something, which is no biggy. I love being able to get plug-ins to use on both DAW's. Feels like I've gotten 2 for one! One of the biggest incentives for me to get DP was its surround support. The panner plug-ins are totally cool. I intend to run 5.1 monitoring out of my 1224 & use my 2408 for DA 88 outputs. MOTU are a great company. So far I've had really good customer support & this forum is pretty damn useful also. I say go for it, but don't banish Digi forever... you may just need to get away from the big-corporation attitude for a while. They're sort of going Windows native anyhow really if you look at some of there AV options. Not surprising really since Apple will be their biggest competitor. The 2408 (Mk 2 or 3) is an absolute amazing little box. Great I/O options...

P.S. the 1224 is quite old, but will work with MOTU's newest PCI-e 424 card... & the latest ver of DP. Sound a bit better than Digi?

pastiche27 · Post by **pastiche27** » Mon May 15, 2006 7:37 am

i use DP4.5 on a dual 533 G4 . though its not nearly as fast as me running DP2.7 on OS9.2 was, I am still getting my work done. I do sound design in full 7.1 surround using an original 828 along with a new 896HD and 828mkII so after six years my original MOTU firewire set up is still operational and compatible with the latest OS DAW and Motu interfaces.

skylabfilmpop · Post by **skylabfilmpop** » Mon May 15, 2006 11:21 am

one of your protools issues is that you are running at os 10.3.8, and protools le the last versionb 6.4 is only tested with os 10.3.4. A dditionally and you may not want to stomach this there could potentially be an issue with the replacement processor getting along with protools. one of the great things about macs over pcs is that because they are alll proprietary developers write for a known hardware configuration. when you add an unknown element, especially a CPU to the mix I would consider it questionable, in a let's see if it works. i use a tdm system that has only crashed on me 5 times in the last 5 years, on a couple of different g4's, so there must be some other things going on. Did you disable journalling on your audio drives? Did you set the power saver to never sleep the cpu, have you maxed out your ram, increased your dae buffer size and memory %, deteted the coreaudio manager (it is problematic), have you set your record time allocation to somthing reasonable like 15 minutes instead of all applicable space ? the biggest issue with digidesign is that they are very conservative in approving their releases, i don't believe logic is even ready for intel machines yet. coputer and electronic capability double itself in 18 months, so its not unreasonable for digi to putout a new product after 4 or more years. you cant still buy or get support for Power PC's or Pentium I's from their manufacturers, can you?
I really am impressed by the new DP and may switch to it from logic as soon as i follow my own very expensive upgrade path to HD, but be aware that compared to a properly working/installed protools system, any program written from the perspective of a sequencer will be inherently less stable. good luck

martian · Post by **martian** » Mon May 15, 2006 1:14 pm

Personally, I think it's "unrealistic" to continually support any company that consistently delivers shoddy goods. Pro engineers have to support Digi/PT. I don't, so I won't. Simple as that.

[/quote]

I'd go along with that - but no comapany is perfect - which is why as a user you have to make your needs known - other users may disagree with your points but I think public debate is good.

PT has some really strong points - so easy to switch between the 2 most useful modes - ie timing of a clip and it's volume - I still miss PT "-" key

The strip silence tool is magnificent...

Unfortuntely digi thinks it has a monopoly - I'm not so sure - things are evening out out due to processor power - I think DP is coming of an age - I think you have to be keen to learn - but the incentive and the rewards are there.

The overally limited PT LE is one serious price mismatch.

The audience has no idea what the hell you used as long as it sounds good.

muxlow · Post by **muxlow** » Mon May 15, 2006 1:21 pm

martian wrote:Unfortuntely digi thinks it has a monopoly

That's been my impression, as well.

I really do think they're poised to be the next Quark. Quark was the 800-pound gorilla of page layout for years on end. Then Adobe released InDesign 1.0 and everyone hated it. Then they released InDesign 2.0 and people started using it. By the time InDesign CS came out, print shops had started to support it. Now, with InDesign CS 2, any printer worth his salt will handle the jobs.

In the meantime, Quark has tried to expand their product line with ill-conceived apps, released overpriced and underfeatured updates riddled with bugs, handled the OS X transition VERY poorly and has seen their user base shrink substantially.

Digi could end up in the same boat with ProTools if they're not careful. Mountains crumble. Giants fall. Monopolies collapse. It could happen...

spirit · Post by **spirit** » Mon May 15, 2006 4:47 pm

Another alternative would be a m audio pci card and PT m audio.
DP has a number of things it does easier or better than PT, and vice versa, but DP 5 might have problems with your upgrade processor as well. So if you want to dip your toes in DP waters you might start with DP5 software (crossgrade?) since you can initially test it with internal audio, then subsequently add a MOTU interface.

dubaifox · Post by **dubaifox** » Mon May 15, 2006 10:16 pm

muxlow wrote:Unfortuntely digi thinks it has a monopoly

Time for a little economics 101

1.Recording software/hardware is small business.
2.Nobody is getting filthy rich from it
3.Whether you think they do, or if Digi thinks they do, there is absolutely no monopoly in the DAW world. Quite the contrary. The only reason you THINK this is because PT is used in professional studios more than all other DAWS combined....and then some.
4.Consumers have put Digidesign in it's current #1 position

They have not gotten there because of corrupt practices and lack of competition. They are there because they have been the best DAW over the years. Saying Digidesign is a terrible business is ludicrous. The consumers around the world have voted with their dollars and said they are the best.

You ALWAYS hear the "Digi had better give more features to be more competive or they are going to fall like a house a cards" argument. Been hearing it for 15 years. Bottom line is that they have a brilliant product line that is the envy of the competition. They are not going away, as much as some of you like to think.

I also think the "Terrible Customer Support" complaint is completely unfounded. You can always get them by phone, they have a strong presence on their forums. (try NI if you want lousy support)

Also, as a regular poster on the Digidesign forum, there are no more people complaining there than here. Besides, that is what people come to forums to do. Look for help with their problems.

pcm · Post by **pcm** » Tue May 16, 2006 12:59 am

dubaifox wrote:Wow!

I read through your whole list of problems, and yes, some of them happen to me. Especially the MIDI notes disappearing, not copying thing. It comes and goes and can be a real pain.

But other than that, PT never I mean NEVER crashes on me. This is on two seperate, identical systems. I don't notice ANY other bugs than the one mentioned above, that seems to be much better in 7.x

I gave up on DP 4.5 for constant crashes and endless stuck notes. For me, PT problems were so minor compared to DP.

As you mention, so many of your dislikes with PT have now been added in PT 7. I really can't understand why you are going to spend the big cash to get a Motu Interface and DP, when you could get a 002r and then have all of these new features. Have you used DP before? We are talking a pretty major learning curve, and I gurantee you wont be free of bugs crashes and annoyances.

No offense, but you seem a little unrealistic in your expectations of a computer based DAW.

I concur with the above. I bought two PT systems last summer, and I have yet to have my first crash on either. If you are having problem with your PT rig, I suggest you reformat your drive and start over. If you still have problems, then your machine or ram (or something else) is to blame. Trust me, it ain't PT. On a proper system PT is the most stable piece of music software I have ever used. It's a rock.

pcm · Post by **pcm** » Tue May 16, 2006 1:44 am

muxlow wrote:Dubaifox, that's good to know that PT7 is working for you. Others on the DUC don't seem to be so lucky. By the by - and this isn't a loaded question - does PT7 support Tiger yet? What about Intel Macs? Is it a Universal Binary? I'm honestly curious...

No offense, but you are seriously out of touch concerning the state of PT. PT6 supported Tiger last summer. June I think. Well ahead of the pack. PT7 is Tiger only. Has been since day 1. How can you say that you are familiar with the DUC, but you don't know any of this? If you read the posts, you would know what's going on. If you went there and posted your issues, or called Digi tech support, you wouldn't be having the kind of problems you are having. Obviously your system needs help. Switching platforms is not going make that go away. DP doesn't like problem systems anymore than PT does. As far as Intel stuff goes, all that info is right there. As far as "other users not being so lucky", you imply that the DUC is well populated by users with issues. I suggest you go to the DUC right now, and read the topics headings. You'll find that is not the case at all. But you didn't know that PT has been running on Tiger for eleven months now, so how would you know?

I'm sorry, I don't mean to pick on you, but it's hard for me to see stuff like this in print and not say something...

dubaifox wrote:I really can't understand why you are going to spend the big cash to get a Motu Interface and DP, when you could get a 002r and then have all of these new features. Have you used DP before? We are talking a pretty major learning curve, and I gurantee you wont be free of bugs crashes and annoyances.

muxlow wrote:If Ford sold me a car that gave me half the trouble ProTools has since PT 6 for OS X came out, you can bet that my next car would NOT be a Ford. If the Chevy I bought sucked too, I'll find another maker. When all the options were exhausted, I'd pick the best of the worst.

Anecdote: I used to develop in Flash for a living. After Macromedia came out with an awful, awful version of Flash for OS X that made my life hell everytime I used it, I abandoned Flash, learned new skills and now rarely have to touch the mess. Life's too short to deal with garbage software. That's also why I use a Mac.

As for learning curves, I like learning new software. It's sick, I know, but I do

As for the expense, a Digi002 rack is over $1000 (going to bed; no time to look up $; correct me if I'm wrong). I'm going to spend about $1200 on a MOTU/DP rig. If I'm wrong - and I may be, no denying that - I'll sell the MOTU rig and probably come in a couple hundred bucks shy of a new Digi002. I'll probably come out ahead if I get a used one. I can live with that amount of risk.

dubaifox wrote:No offense, but you seem a little unrealistic in your expectations of a computer based DAW.
If you're willing to tolerate that list of problems I noted up there, you're a much more patient fox than I. Personally, I think it's "unrealistic" to continually support any company that consistently delivers shoddy goods. Pro engineers have to support Digi/PT. I don't, so I won't. Simple as that.

-----

muxlow wrote:One last reason for not sticking with PT: I'm not 100% convinced of their comittment to OS X. Avid can't be happy about Final Cut Pro killing their business model, PT doesn't seem to be embracing any OS X technologies (audio units, core audio, etc.), they're perpetually behind on OS updates, I don't think they've EVER participated in a MacWorld keynote speech, etc. etc. I don't want to buy into a ship just as the captain bores a hole through the belly.

I truly hope I'm wrong on this (it'd be a huge blow to Apple if I'm right), but my bets are hedged by going with MOTU, or even Logic.

With MOTU, as long as they're in business, I know they're committed to the platform. (right, MOTU?)

This is uneducated speculation on your part, sorry. PT currently supports 10.4.6, the most current. AU support for Digi is pointless, as they already have TDM, AudioSuite, and RTAS. Seriously mature formats in world-wide usage. And with a vender support list that puts every other format put together to shame. Why should they support AU? And I don't know where you are getting this Avid stuff from.

Assuming I haven't pissed you off totally yet

, I will offer this advice: Run hardware tests on your machine, maybe try swapping ram. If you have a proper machine (no hardware issues), and the correct OS version installed, and you do a virgin install of PT, it ain't gonna crash, period. Borrow another machine, and install PT on that and run it. See if that solves the problem. Some machines (or combos of hardware) just ain't gonna work, no matter what. One thing I can guarantee, if your machine has issues, switching to DP will just be more of the same headaches. No offense, but you strike me as an unknowledgable user with a messed up machine. I would work on both of those issues before you spend any more money.

dubaifox · Post by **dubaifox** » Tue May 16, 2006 3:15 am

pcm wrote:No offense, but you are seriously out of touch concerning the state of PT. PT6 supported Tiger last summer.

Not only that, but Digi has a release for Intel in two weeks. MOTU current timeline is "soon". Seems like Digi/Intel will happen sooner than DP5/Intel.

muxlow wrote:you strike me as an unknowledgable user with a messed up machine. I would work on both of those issues before you spend any more money.

I was going to make both of these points as well, but ran out of breath.

Phil Jeffers · Post by **Phil Jeffers** » Tue May 16, 2006 7:53 am

I agree. PT's & DP are the best DAW's out there IMHO. They're both rock-solid. All the gripes on the DUC lately were mostly due to "unauthorized" plug-ins installed on their systems. A lot of free ones amongst them. Digidesign really are in a bind between their LE & HD platforms. With host processing so fast now, LE can often perform as high as a HD 2 card (& easily a HD 1 core). How do you explain that to guys that have spend something like 10 times as much on their systems... DV Toolkit 2 makes for a pretty amazing little system. 48 stereo tracks, 32 internal busses, an EXCELLENT convolution reverb, this plug totally rocks + TC, OMF & full Digi-Base capability. They actually listen to their customers & in fact, "gave in" to a petition on the DUC to give more than 32 voices with LE 7.1. They're right up there with features & excellent tech support. Why not just have both? Best of both worlds. If a project is straight tracking/editing I'd say PT's. If you need full-on MIDI & VI's, then DP. If you need surround, then DP, If you need a straight out stereo mix, then PT's. Whatever!

martian · Post by **martian** » Thu May 18, 2006 2:28 am

I agree with Phil Digi is in a bind - but honestly why do I need both now? I already have 7 can't remember the last time I opened it.-

I won't upgrade to DV toolkit 2 - If I want to convert OMF's I'd rather spend US800 on AVtransfer .... the swiss army knife of OMF, Fairlight, Akai, Protools exports - converts seemlessly between formats ( at least the ones I tried ,OMF PT Fairlight Akai- think it got a few more too

- Having just finished a full motion feature in 3 weeks by myself and in surround is not bad going by any standards - It will be in Cannes - so if you in that part of the world this month go check out "dog bite dog "

I cant see myself going back to protools now - unless of course everything falls to bits when I install DP5

It took some setting up - but there are some amazing features in there and more importantly it has been reliable dig it cost me US10,000 nope - did it cost me US1300 - Nope ..... these are economics..

as well as nice things -things like faster than real time bounces of stems out.

nice window sets - one for each job you like - so if I wanna reverse a clip I just hit 4 for instance and out pops the box to reverse the cip - trim clips -

The surround panners were great - the automation worked as expected - all those free plug ins ( why no chorus in PT LE? dsp chips? cough?)

It was pretty good - only had a day were it went sluggish in one reel - I did a save as and duplicate audio - and was off again.

Maybe it's not a good idea to check your email whilst doing a playback for the director - but the confidence was there....

Going back to economics 101 ( i had a busy week no time for rhetoricals ) It used to be Fairlight that was Audio post #1 - they were under cut by protools - is there a parallel with FCP and Avid here?

It takes a mighty long time to get from Avid codecs to Quicktime - at least in my neck of the woods.. But once in the more openly supported QT format - you are more fluid. Again Avid trying to stop the free democratic flow - limiting to those who have - but final cut seems to be on the rise - lets ask Walter murch what he thinks? Cold Mountain etc ..

I think the freer development of software will bring more players to the table - there are more programmers now working on more recycled code - making it do smarter things for less and less cash - millions more smaller fish ( that's you small fry

) whales on verge of extinction you gas guzzlin yanks you! Or is it the Japanese to blame?

smaller faster cheaper - it was the way of the computer- camera you name it...

The guys who did the final on the stems I supplied - were using a mishmash of Protools and a tascam dubber.. They were using a massive digital studer console pretty much to change the levels on approx 24 channels of audio - gouped to SFX master, Music master, dialog master Ambiencemaster and foley master ....... Even they found adding more protools outputs expensive.... and don't tell me they were mixing in the box - cos nobody is going to do that at the side of a stage on a single 17 inch mac g4 ( had 768Meg processor and was on 6.1 or 4 )

DP seems to play more nicely with other industry members - You chose the interface you need (or not infact!! ) With DP I found the audio finder app an indispensible partner.

Digi aren't really opening up - or weren't - I think I am leaving them behind - their core driver was crap for years - drove me away cos I couldn't afford the overheads to set up a rig- I don't want to mortage to get it - I smell the wind of change and I'm smiling

The world just keeps on turning -- the way it is today isn't how it was 10 years ago - progress has been made!

MOTUnation.com

Specific ProTools > DP Questions

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