New IK Multimedia CSR (Classic Studio Reverb) plug...

[daveyboy]

I've found UAD-1's Nigel to be about the best guitar emulator I could find, FWIW. I bought the 3U rack mount of the Line6 unit and have NEVER been happy with it in any way, shape, form, or function. Nigel, on the other hand, has gotten results that have turned the heads of some very picky session players. I always hear "what the hell did you do to my tracks?"-- and then they tell me "it sounds great-- how did you do that?"

In a mix, perhaps it's less crucial, but a real stack with some honest OD and genuine air rubbing against some great mic's and quality pre's can't be beat.

Hmmm... well one of my intended upgrades was to buy the UAD-1 UltraPak. I had put it off thinking I wouldn't do much mixing since I'll be mixing my CD at a friend's DP studio. However, might be fun to have Nigel.

Yeah, as for real amps... as a Marshall fiend, I just can't give them up. I'm excited now that I have a Millennia HV-3C due to arrive. I'm also taking my motorcycle up the road to Audio Upgrades in Van Nuys to drop off my AKG 414B-ULS. They have a mod for $250 that my friend did that he swears turned it into a whole new mic. So I figuring I'll try tracking with that mic and a 57 into the Millennia which willl feed the HD192 also on order. I'm expecting good things.

James, OT, what is the 414 mod do specifically to the sound, any idea? I have one and actually like it and was curious if the frequency curve gets changed?

[billf]

but you have to have their dongle before you can run the demo.

Weird. I guess they only want to sell this product to existing customers. At $400 a pop, it would have to be mind blowing for me to buy it.

[pcm]

Well the i-lok thing kills it for me.

Also have to strongly disagree with the statement that you can't get a world-class reverb with a plug-in. I've had enough experience with all kinds of hardware reverb units including the Lexicons and I'd say that with convolution reverbs like Wizooverb or Altiverb you can indeed get the Lexicon sound no problem. Yes, there is a difference but for me it's small enough to be negligible. But that's me - I guess in my world, "close enough" really is "close enough".

.

I based my opinion on the following experiments I did. I set up both my Lexicons and Altiverb and ran some A/B tests. There are quite a few differences, but the biggest on I hear is that the plugins seem to "add" the reverb sound to the mix, whereas with the Lexicon, I can hear the music itself in the reverb tail. The verb tail is rich with the music itself. The Altiverb tail sounds more like a clever sound effect, kind of like the reverb tail of something else (gee I wonder why). Try this test. Set up a long verb and abruptly stop playback so you can hear the reverb tail. Compare that against a Lex 300 or similar, on a similar patch. The difference is rather startling. If you haven't done this test, then you really are not in a position to say that Altiverb (or any other of it's ilk) can compare to a pro unit. I wish it were true, I'd have a lot more $ in the bank!

Then there are some who say that these Chinese mics can compare to a U87. Doesn't anybody do tests anymore?

[pcm]

I should add that for short verbs that are not very high in the mix, I think products like Altiverb are ok. When you get into longer verbs with a fair bit of reverb in the mix, that's when it all goes to hell. I have a project coming in that is in it's final mixing stages, and is fairly orchestral in nature, with quite a lot of long reverb. The reverb clouds the sound of the whole recording very badly, as it doesn't actually "contain" any music. (see post above). This fits with the artist's complaint that the mix sounds "dense and unclear". My next call is to the mix engineer to suggest they rent a pro unit, cause even in my car, the plugin sucks.

To be clear, I am not debating the "value" of plugin reverbs, they fit with the whole home studio thing most appropriately, my debate is with those who claim that they replace "world class" units. That's wishful thinking and delusional. I wish it weren't so.

[James Steele]

James, OT, what is the 414 mod do specifically to the sound, any idea? I have one and actually like it and was curious if the frequency curve gets changed?

Well, you'd have to as Jim Watson as he had it done to his. I know these things are subjective (what a concept!), but I trust his opinion. He said that it felt like removing the veil on the mic... that things seemed to sound much more "open" and "airy" I think... Any way, funny you should ask as I'm 10 minutes away from hopping on my motorcycle and my two-hour trek to deliver my mic.

Why not ship it? Because it's one of the first beautiful, sunny days we've had in San Diego in over a week!

[James Steele]

...the biggest on I hear is that the plugins seem to "add" the reverb sound to the mix, whereas with the Lexicon, I can hear the music itself in the reverb tail. The verb tail is rich with the music itself. The Altiverb tail sounds more like a clever sound effect, kind of like the reverb tail of something else (gee I wonder why). Try this test. Set up a long verb and abruptly stop playback so you can hear the reverb tail. Compare that against a Lex 300 or similar, on a similar patch. The difference is rather startling.

Thanks for sharing that! That's VERY interesting. You don't suppose there's a way you could somehow record this test? I'm wondering if HiJack or one of those things could record this... or actually if you have a DAT laying around you could maybe record this using analog outs. I'd love to hear the difference in the reverb tails. Would be cool if you could post two high quality MP3s of the A/B test.

[MT]

Any way, funny you should ask as I'm 10 minutes away from hopping on my motorcycle and my two-hour trek to deliver my mic.

If I hadn't just spent lunch taking a run on one beautiful uncommonly cool day in Dallas, I'd be really pissed off reading that.

Enjoy the hell out of that ride!

[pcm]

...the biggest on I hear is that the plugins seem to "add" the reverb sound to the mix, whereas with the Lexicon, I can hear the music itself in the reverb tail. The verb tail is rich with the music itself. The Altiverb tail sounds more like a clever sound effect, kind of like the reverb tail of something else (gee I wonder why). Try this test. Set up a long verb and abruptly stop playback so you can hear the reverb tail. Compare that against a Lex 300 or similar, on a similar patch. The difference is rather startling.

Thanks for sharing that! That's VERY interesting. You don't suppose there's a way you could somehow record this test? I'm wondering if HiJack or one of those things could record this... or actually if you have a DAT laying around you could maybe record this using analog outs. I'd love to hear the difference in the reverb tails. Would be cool if you could post two high quality MP3s of the A/B test.

I'd love to. Can we use AAC (iTunes Music Store) format? MP3 is too smeared sounding. Anyone with Quicktime or iTunes would be able to play them.

I can do several - AltiVerb, Waves RVerb, and maybe a couple of the Digi platform ones. Then of course the high-end Lexicon one.

To record it, I will import a good sounding commercial CD, and have the track mute at a certain spot, thereby exposing the (added) reverb tail. I will take DP's output digitally into my Masterlink, thereby preserving the real-time effect, as one would hear over the speakers. I will then re-import the Masterlink files (AIFFs) into iTiunes, and convert to AAC.

Where do I upload to?

It will take me a few days, as I am away from my studio until tuesday.

-Mark

[mcevilley]

I'd love to. Can we use AAC (iTunes Music Store) format? MP3 is too smeared sounding. Anyone with Quicktime or iTunes would be able to play them.

I can do several - AltiVerb, Waves RVerb, and maybe a couple of the Digi platform ones. Then of course the high-end Lexicon one.


-Mark

I'm really looking forward to hearing this. Plug-in reverbs are always a source of a bit of frustration while mixing--always sounds like too much or too little. Thanks in advance.

[James Steele]

Where do I upload to?

It will take me a few days, as I am away from my studio until tuesday.

-Mark

Just send them as attachments to me at admin@unicornation.com. They shouldn't be all that big if they're AAC. I'll put them on this server and then post links in this thread. Take your time... whenever you can. I'm really curious to hear this. Thanks!

[James Steele]

Any way, funny you should ask as I'm 10 minutes away from hopping on my motorcycle and my two-hour trek to deliver my mic.

If I hadn't just spent lunch taking a run on one beautiful uncommonly cool day in Dallas, I'd be really pissed off reading that.

Enjoy the hell out of that ride!

Don't envy me. Wanna hear a good story? I hop on the motorcycle... long sleeve shirt, vest... just gonna have a nice ride. Well I spoke to the guy on the phone the day before and said I'd bring the mic up to him. I went to his site, http://www.audioupgrades.com and noted the address, did the Yahoo Maps thing this morning and off I go. Did it occur to me to verify that he hadn't moved?

Bottom line I arrive at locked suite at a small commercial type building in Van Nuys and it's empty... deserted. I call the number and say "Where are you located?" (This is a little bit of verification I should have done BEFORE leaving). He says "Carlsbad, CA"... Hooray... I overshot by about 100 miles or so. LOL I suggested he might update his site. Say's he's working on that... friend was doing it for him and isn't any more and he's lost his passwords. I offered to go in and fix it for him.

Any way, bottom line is I got it done... looking forward to the sound of this hot-rodded 414B-ULS. I have a Millennia Media HV-3C coming and a MOTU HD192 interface... so I'm looking foward to it. Also, I *did* get Altiverb today... it may not stack up to expensive hardware boxes... but I couldn't resist.

[Hideout]

I bought the 3U rack mount of the Line6 unit and have NEVER been happy with it in any way, shape, form, or function. Nigel, on the other hand, has gotten results that have turned the heads of some very picky session players. I always hear "what the hell did you do to my tracks?"-- and then they tell me "it sounds great-- how did you do that?"

By "Line6 unit", I take it you mean the Pod and I agree whole heartedly. The XT series especially are the HARSHEST sounding units ever and every single amp model feels and reacts exactly the same to playing touch! While it's perfectly fine for Nu-Metal music, its classic amp models feel, react and distort just like the high gain models. No smoothness, too much bottom, too much fuzziness and crappy sustain. The XTL especially is just plain horrid!
They also have the worst compressors of all the modelers out there. Yuck!

[Tim]

I'm also taking my motorcycle up the road to Audio Upgrades in Van Nuys to drop off my AKG 414B-ULS.

Funny......I recently read on a forum somewhere, someone saying that Jim now lives in San Diego. I doubt it, but haven't yet bothered to confirm it.
Have you spoken with him?

[Rush909]

I am also waiting to hear these samples... I just sold my PCM70 after creating impulses for altiverb...to my ears both sounded pretty identical (enough to part with my favorite reverb unit)... when I hear claims that plugins are "NOT EVEN CLOSE" to hardware I am always intrigued by what people are actually hearing...

r.

[James Steele]

I'm also taking my motorcycle up the road to Audio Upgrades in Van Nuys to drop off my AKG 414B-ULS.

Funny......I recently read on a forum somewhere, someone saying that Jim now lives in San Diego. I doubt it, but haven't yet bothered to confirm it.
Have you spoken with him?

Uh, I wish I did. If you'll see my post above, I rode all the way up to Van Nuys to discover he had moved when I got there. Fun stuff. He's actually in Carlsbad which is a little north of San Diego, but pretty much right close by.