Digital Performer 11.33 version

[Michael Canavan]

Thanks for the video. Yeah that's pretty much exactly what I was talking about. DP is missing some sort of tag for it's automation parameters.

I was making the connection to Logic and Bitwig etc. in the sense that they do this natively, Bitwig is a good example of this tech. A guy named Moss does these amazing scripts for all the major controllers, but natively Bitwig does this sort of mapping for parameters. pretty much exactly like the Eucon does for Cubase, PT etc. I really hope this tech comes to DP, I really do think there is a connection to DP not doing this sort of thing natively and DP's lack of Eucon support.

Bitwigs implementation is really quite impressive. I truly wish we had something like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeK9cGfNDeo

[James Steele]

Thanks for the video. Yeah that's pretty much exactly what I was talking about. DP is missing some sort of tag for it's automation parameters.

I don't know how you can make that diagnosis, but okay. You did see that it DOES work until you quit and the re-launch DP, right? To me that doesn't seem to indicate missing a tag or whatever, but a problem with loading in the map from the XML file and properly refreshing things after you've quit DP and relaunched it.

Again... you DID see that it worked absolutely as it should have after first being set up and before quitting DP? That doesn't indicate to me something as fundamental as what you describe.

[James Steele]

And I'll say one more thing. I'm obviously not new to DP. And I think my bonafides regarding being a supporter and proponent of MOTU and DP over decades should go without saying. I'm just finding that I'm growing weary of making excuses or being an apologist. I watch DP falling behind and I don't think I'm actually helping them anymore by running interference or blunting criticism when it's deserved.

If I were you, I'd set up a meeting with some exec at MOTU if possible. They should give you one. Perhaps they'd even ask you to sign a non disclosure agreement in any areas you need confidential info on.

I don't see what use that might be? Honestly... I do know they are "aware" of the problem. I would just like some indication as to when they might fix it? Hopefully sometime in 2025? Maybe they have a new version to go for NAMM, although they appear to be skipping NAMM again this year.

[James Steele]

The way I see it, it’s not really Avid’s responsibility to take the lead on fixing this.

Agreed. I was just think that if MOTU needs some time or documents from AVID to get this fixed, it’s not likely to be at the top of AVID’s todo list,

Well, regarding Avid's incentive, I saw someone mention on another forum, and I believe this is true, that although Avid does not charge licensing for DAW developers to use EUCON, they do NOT license EUCON for third-party hardware. I guess this gives them a lock on hardware sales. If you want to use a control surface that can take advantage of the extended capabilities of EUCON, you have no choice but to buy an Avid control surface like the S1 (or a used S3 in my case), or even their higher end options like S4? S6? I don't pay attention to that because those are out of the reach of most home studio people.

I don't know where it is on Avid's todo list, or if Avid is really aware of it. The incentive for them might be that if they want to sell S1s to DP users, they'd want things to work as well as they can. Then again, I think most DP users will be like me and walk into it blind and base their purchasing decision on the fact that MOTU claims EUCON support on their website, etc. It's only when you start using it and digging more deeply in the the capabilities of the control surface that you discover the problems like the custom parameter maps, or the fact that using the control surface to *add* a plugin to an insert theoretically works, but is practically useless if you have more than a handful of plugins installed. In my video, obviously I'm not going to page through 1,100+ plugins, 16 at a time, looking for the one I want to add. This is because DP does not offer any type of hierarchy—not even the first level being "manufacturer."

I think the problem with not being able to easily add plug ins is sort of MOTU getting bit by going the extra mile and originally giving us so much flexibility to set up our own folders and categories in the plugin menu. Just think about the effort necessary to make a custom user-created plugin menu also work in EuControl. I did suggest to MOTU that they side step the problem by simply hard-coding DP so that only the "manufacturer" hierarchy appears in EUCON control surfaces. That would be better than nothing.

[bayswater]

I think the problem with not being able to easily add plug ins is sort of MOTU getting bit by going the extra mile and originally giving us so much flexibility to set up our own folders and categories in the plugin menu. Just think about the effort necessary to make a custom user-created plugin menu also work in EuControl. I did suggest to MOTU that they side step the problem by simply hard-coding DP so that only the "manufacturer" hierarchy appears in EUCON control surfaces. That would be better than nothing.

Does selecting specific plugins work well with other DAWs? Presumably you’ve tried it with Logic. Does it allow you to narrow in on a specific plugin? They have a built in hierarchy, but also let you attach different names to plugins. Mixbus uses some sort of third party plugin classification that doesn’t seem to have taken the world by storm.

Being able to simply start typing the name of the plugin would be the easiest, no?

[Michael Canavan]

Thanks for the video. Yeah that's pretty much exactly what I was talking about. DP is missing some sort of tag for it's automation parameters.

I don't know how you can make that diagnosis, but okay. You did see that it DOES work until you quit and the re-launch DP, right? To me that doesn't seem to indicate missing a tag or whatever, but a problem with loading in the map from the XML file and properly refreshing things after you've quit DP and relaunched it.

Again... you DID see that it worked absolutely as it should have after first being set up and before quitting DP? That doesn't indicate to me something as fundamental as what you describe.

I think the issue is it looks exactly like something as fundamental as I described. DP doesn't have any way internally to reorder it's plugin parameters, but you can of course get automation to work on tracks in DP, but without automation in tracks I don't think DP saves anything about where that automation is? The Eucon seems to be mapping the parameters it can see and DP in the project when it's open acknowledges that, but when it closes it forgets it.

One curious question if you don't mind, if the parameter you map to a knob or slider in Eucon has automation in a track, does it keep the assignment?

[James Steele]

I think the problem with not being able to easily add plug ins is sort of MOTU getting bit by going the extra mile and originally giving us so much flexibility to set up our own folders and categories in the plugin menu. Just think about the effort necessary to make a custom user-created plugin menu also work in EuControl. I did suggest to MOTU that they side step the problem by simply hard-coding DP so that only the "manufacturer" hierarchy appears in EUCON control surfaces. That would be better than nothing.

Does selecting specific plugins work well with other DAWs? Presumably you’ve tried it with Logic. Does it allow you to narrow in on a specific plugin? They have a built in hierarchy, but also let you attach different names to plugins. Mixbus uses some sort of third party plugin classification that doesn’t seem to have taken the world by storm.

Yes... for the other DAWs (on Mac) that I have that support EUCON (this includes Pro Tools, Cubase, and Logic), they all present you with a hierarchal menu so you can drill down and efficiently find the plugin you wish. Even if it's just my manufacturer, it's a lot easy to be presented with an alphabetical list presented horizontally on the OLEDs above the encoders and page over to a manufacturer, press the corresponding encoder, and then locate the plugin in.

Being able to simply start typing the name of the plugin would be the easiest, no?

Yes it would be but it requires leaving the control surface and switching back to the computer. Not necessarily a big deal, but I have been intrigued with the possibilities of the control surface and whether or not, given time to work with it till it is second nature, it might be either more efficient or more enjoyable or both. I may well be that it could be one or the other, or neither. But I would sure like to find out. I just will never know in DP because not enough is supported well enough to conduct such an experiment.

I'm just kinda old school and I when it comes time to mix, I sort of like the tactile experience the reminds me of mixing boards and hardware. In fact, I haven't done it yet, but I think it would be quite interesting to see if I could work for any length of time "blind." That is displays off... using just my ears and the surface. Like a pilot having an IFR (Instrument Flight Rating.). It may not be possible, just something I'm curious about.

Naturally, because it's a protocol owned by Avid now, the best support is in Pro Tools. I think you can even assign tracks to Groups with a EUCON control surface in Pro Tools. I find adding tracks to Groups via DP's GUI a bit cumbersome. Also, when reading the manual (EGAD!!) I discovered that similar to how you can save a preset from within a plugin's GUI or from DP's plugin window (as an ".aupreset"), Pro Tools also has an option to save a plugin preset from it's plugin window, but the difference is you can actually recall those presets with the control surface as well. So it's completely possible to instantiate a plugin, and choose a preset from the control surface without touching the mouse.

I've played around with programming buttons on the S3 to send key-commands, some of which can trigger Keyboard Maestro macros. I can actually open DP's "Recent" menu in the File menu and scroll and choose a project to open from the control surface... without touching the Mac mouse or keyboard.

Maybe not all of this is necessary, but it's enjoyable to me.

[James Steele]

Thanks for the video. Yeah that's pretty much exactly what I was talking about. DP is missing some sort of tag for it's automation parameters.

I don't know how you can make that diagnosis, but okay. You did see that it DOES work until you quit and the re-launch DP, right? To me that doesn't seem to indicate missing a tag or whatever, but a problem with loading in the map from the XML file and properly refreshing things after you've quit DP and relaunched it.

Again... you DID see that it worked absolutely as it should have after first being set up and before quitting DP? That doesn't indicate to me something as fundamental as what you describe.

I think the issue is it looks exactly like something as fundamental as I described. DP doesn't have any way internally to reorder it's plugin parameters, but you can of course get automation to work on tracks in DP, but without automation in tracks I don't think DP saves anything about where that automation is? The Eucon seems to be mapping the parameters it can see and DP in the project when it's open acknowledges that, but when it closes it forgets it.

One curious question if you don't mind, if the parameter you map to a knob or slider in Eucon has automation in a track, does it keep the assignment?

I'll have to try that experiment. What I do not understand though is how it can all work flawlessly UNTIL DP is quit and relaunched?. Either way, seems like Steinberg and Apple figured it out. (Not counting Avid, because that should be a given.)

[Michael Canavan]

I'll have to try that experiment. What I do not understand though is how it can all work flawlessly UNTIL DP is quit and relaunched?. Either way, seems like Steinberg and Apple figured it out. (Not counting Avid, because that should be a given.)

Yeah it's a weird one, it's IMO likely either that Steinberg and Apple added code to their DAWs that explicitly makes it work, not unlike how they all have to do that to get general DAW control surface support in things like Komplete Kontrol for mixing, track arming and selection etc.

or it's the general order of DP's automation is not rememberable by DP/Eucon unless there's track data, which would be a DP limitation. Either way as you point out it's always going to be on MOTU just like it was/is on Steinberg, Apple etc.

I do think it's a deep enough issue to where it's likely only solved with the upgrade to 12, if they do solve it. I hope they do because plugin automation being able to be assigned permanently to a plugin is such a great idea I've almost been willing to put up with the shortcomings I find in Logic or Bitwig.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Using the search bar in trying to open a file from within DP crashes very time. MOTU knows since DP 11 initial release.

[PVB]

By the way... I know Avid does this, and PreSonus is now doing this... and I don't want to make anybody angry at me... but it may be that MOTU needs to explore a way of generating more revenue. I know, like Avid, PreSonus is now doing a similar arrangement where you get a perpetual license, but you pay something annually to maintain a support plan where you get updates during the term of your support plan. The last version you owned will never stop working.... but you have to renew support for bug fixes.

I mean I get it... nobody wants to have to shell out money every year. I hardly use Pro Tools at this point (I bought my perpetual license "used" for half price) but I've had to send Avid $199 every October for the last few years. I guess I didn't have to... but I did. For example, PT 2024.10 just dropped today. My support plan just renewed on 10/13. I'd have been stuck on 2024.6. Not like it's a big deal at this point... I have literally just one "test project" in Pro Tools that I pull up every so often and look at. But I felt I wanted to have it on my drive in case I needed it when collaborating with other people, etc.

If what it took for MOTU to have the resources to bear down and really dig in and just fix what's there already meant I had to pay something annually, I would do it. I think we're seeing a shift with a decline in prices for what companies can charge for DAWs and when your revenue only comes in from major updates, it incentivizes new features over fixing what's broken.

Just floating this idea for discussion. I don't know about $199... but I would not be opposed to MOTU adopting an approach like this if the renewal was reasonable and it resulted in them being able to put additional resources onto bug fixes.

Great idea ... I'm in! Maybe even / also a one time contribution sort of like Go Fund Me with MOTU conditionally promising to deal with these annoying issues. Losing DP would be a huge tragedy for many of us. The time it would take to become super comfortable with another DAW could amount to many thousands of dollars. Considering how relatively few [although very frustrating] things are wrong with DP compared to the zillions of things that are great I think we shouldn't rule out the above. If you own a home for many years there comes a time when you need new shingles ... you weren't planning on this unexpected expense but fixing the roof is way cheaper than moving. Last point ... MOTU could really use an active ombudsman. Hoping for happiness and ATMOS in DP12.

[James Steele]

Great idea ... I'm in! Maybe even / also a one time contribution sort of like Go Fund Me with MOTU conditionally promising to deal with these annoying issues.

I thought about that for a split second before rejecting it. A GoFundMe for a pro audio company is not a good look. Can only imagine how that would get twisted by the DP doomsayers. (And contrary to what some might think lately, I’m not one of those.)

[PVB]

Great idea ... I'm in! Maybe even / also a one time contribution sort of like Go Fund Me with MOTU conditionally promising to deal with these annoying issues.

I thought about that for a split second before rejecting it. A GoFundMe for a pro audio company is not a good look. Can only imagine how that would get twisted by the DP doomsayers. (And contrary to what some might think lately, I’m not one of those.)

OK maybe a GoFundMe in particular might send a negative message so maybe an annual ‘maintenance’ fee is the way to go. I’m definitely not a doomsayer!

[Michael Canavan]

IMO the Bitwig model is pretty good. They have an "update plan" which is $165, or $130 if you get it on sale, which give you all updates for a year. It's not a subscription so the DAW does not stop working if you do not buy the plan, it just runs out after the last bugfix update near the end of your plan. You are not punished at all for waiting a year or three to buy into the update plan again.

The downsides are all the same as subscriptions, (besides obviously where you can't use the software if you aren't subscribed), you don't know what they will add to the software in that year, it could be things that you don't use etc. but we're talking about a way for loyal users to buy into a DAW that they really love. This is essentially how a small company like Bitwig stays afloat being the rival of Live and FL Studio, and it could work for DP being the rival of Logic, PT and Cubase.

[mhschmieder]

Version 11.33 definitely seems more stable to me so far, and much faster to load large multi-chunk projects as well as to close them sans glitches. But I haven't had a lot of time with it yet, so maybe it will destabilize after more use or when leaving DP open for day-long sessions.