Digital Performer 11.33 version

[Michael Canavan]

But hey believe as you wish.

I think you're missing that DAW companies can be really really small and do very well. Reaper is doing great, by any metric. It's not an uncomplicated DAW. I know this is a random sample, but the main Facebook group is 51k members, compare that to 9K for DP. It's two people on the main development team, and some extras doing Lua script. I would say without a doubt it's in the top six in terms of user base.

Look, DP has been dying for 20 years now, pretty much ever since Emagic Logic was bought by Apple. Somehow it's still not dead. I'm worried like anyone who likes the DAW, but I think some things just wouldn't be happening if they were near shuttering shop. The Webinars for one, it's been three years at least now, and it's still going strong. https://motu.com/en-us/products/software/dp/webinars/

Whether you use it or not, DP having Clips puts it in a different category than Cubase, Reaper, Pro Tools etc. It helps it to compete against Logic and be a jumping up point from Bitwig or Live if you want better scoring tools etc. That move in DP11 said one thing clearly to me, MOTU are more than willing to work to keep DP alive.

[dewdman42]

All I will say is from what I've read it's tough for DAW developers to find programmer talent because good programmers can make much better money, with better benefits in just about any other industry. Music related software is rather niche. Someone good can make better money working for Boeing or Lockheed than MOTU.

Could be part of the problem as well no doubt. Anyway, I don't personally think MOTU is going to die tomorrow or DP either..we are just pontificating here hypothetically. I think its fair to say that for a good while, the progress on DP development has seemed slower then some other competing products. I personally doubt this is due to MOTU simply not wanting to do it. it's a balancing act of resources and they are doing what they can. But as DP becomes less popular, their resource allocation on it is going to also dwindle more and more. The idea you have about changing over to subscription may in fact be the best option to keep it alive and functioning longer into the future. I personally don't love subscription plans, and also quite likely I will move on to other DAW's if they did that. maybe. I should say it depends on how they do it and how much it costs. But I think many devout DP users would go for it. And perhaps that would give them more garanteed revenue that they could use to allocate resources to DP in some way. I always feel like if they do the features ahead of time and release it, then the revenue will still come equally well...but its a philosophical thing for me...i don't like the idea of users funding their development. that's what investors are for. we should not have to be taking that risk as customers. they need to develop it, and earn our business. That's just how I feel free enterprise should work. Otherwise customers will end up being exploited and taken advantage of sooner or later, that is human nature. The fair exchange happens when they produce something that is worth selling and sell it to us if we think its worth it.

But I also think DP could release paid updates more often than they have been. Yes they might have to acquire a few more developers and work on it more in order to do that, but then theoretically there could be more revenue from regular yearly upgrades. some of the ongoing momentum can come from user loyalty and perception that its being worked on, its developed, their needs are being met, etc..people will continue to sink their money in to that model and as revenue goes up, then MOTU can hire people and/or allocate developer resources to DP more and so on....

some of the things Mike pointed out about the interface are why many people seem to be turned off by Dp when they try it. Its often not immediately intuitive, giving people and instant feeling of being enabled to create. Instead it's a deep product that takes some time to get up to speed before you can accomplish anything. some very powerful features such as clippings window behavior as an example...mike gave an example of using clippings to store some track setups and i didn't;'t even know that was possible...and most people would never inuit that from the word "clippings". The use of the word "chunks" is equally confusing to most people out there that have no idea what it is. This to me says that usability factors were simply not given enough attention by true experts in that field. dp isn't terrible. Reaper is terrible regarding usability. logicPro wins that contest between the big ones... But anyway that is the kind of thing that will turn people away from a product very fast, regardless of the underlying power that is there if you take hte time to get used to it and learn it. take a look at the Reaper fans out there that think its the greatest thing ever due to a LOT of internal power, customizability and flexibility...but to this day i've never enjoyed my attempts to use it...its not intuitive and I can't be bothered with it. Some people feel that way about Dp to a lessor degree. If MOTU wants to gain market share...that would be an area to work on it. but the question is does motu even care about gaining market share on DP? I'm not sure they do. As long as they aren't losing money on it, I think they will tick away at it....make some improvements here and there, keep it going...but its all indications are that it will continue to change slowly for the foreseeable future...and in truth its hard for them to compete against Steinberg and Apple due to resources.

[Michael Canavan]

I think its fair to say that for a good while, the progress on DP development has seemed slower then some other competing products. I personally doubt this is due to MOTU simply not wanting to do it. it's a balancing act of resources and they are doing what they can. But as DP becomes less popular, their resource allocation on it is going to also dwindle more and more.

A core beta tester told a few of us without possibly breaking his NDA that since he started testing around v1 even, MOTU have been constantly developing DP, and it hasn't slowed down at all.

One other thing, MOTU sometimes IMO take too long between upgrades, since v4 there have been two upgrades that were longer than the current stretch, we're a few days from three years four months the others were 3y 6m and 3y 5m. So part of the issue with them falling behind a little is everyone else has upgraded in the last year or two. So yeah I think at the least more frequent upgrades would make perfect sense.

to their credit they did leak to someone six or so months ago that at that point they were focused on stability with DP. So there's that. I still think an Upgrade is past due.

I'm that dork who wondered about their pattern enough to make a table, we are due for a new version in the next couple months IMO from looking at this.
DP versions by Michael Canavan, on Flickr

[James Steele]

I think its fair to say that for a good while, the progress on DP development has seemed slower then some other competing products. I personally doubt this is due to MOTU simply not wanting to do it. it's a balancing act of resources and they are doing what they can.

Indeed and I've never questioned that. Unfortunately there's a vast chasm between wanting to do something and doing it. I agree it's a balancing act. Depending on what's important to you, you may find yourself on the wrong side of the scale.

The idea you have about changing over to subscription may in fact be the best option to keep it alive and functioning longer into the future. I personally don't love subscription plans, and also quite likely I will move on to other DAW's if they did that. maybe. I should say it depends on how they do it and how much it costs. But I think many devout DP users would go for it. And perhaps that would give them more garanteed revenue that they could use to allocate resources to DP in some way.

Well... not to split hairs, but I was not talking about a *subscription* but rather a support plan. There are some nuanced differences. Pro Tools, for example, has a subscription plan and also "perpetual licenses" that come with a year of support and then you renew your support annually. I have a friend who has a subscription. He has to pay money to Avid every month or his Pro Tools stops working. I have a perpetual license for Pro Tools Studio (again that I got 1/2 price from someone given it as a gift), and I pay $199/year for a support plan, meaning I'm eligible for updates during while my support is current. If I let the support lapse, I don't get updates, but my copy of Pro Tools Studio keeps working until some future version of MacOS might break it.

Anyway... the support plan might bug people, but I don't think it's as onerous as a subscription. I will *never* do a subscription for anything

Also as you say it would depend on the price. I don't think MOTU could charge $199/year like Avid, but on the other hand, maybe $99/year would be adequate. And it would have to prove a good investment to end users. This means more frequent incremental bug fix releases and hopefully shortening the amount of time between users reporting a bug and MOTU fixing that bug. And yes... new feature releases perhaps once per year? I'm just spitballing here.

I always feel like if they do the features ahead of time and release it, then the revenue will still come equally well...but its a philosophical thing for me...i don't like the idea of users funding their development. that's what investors are for. we should not have to be taking that risk as customers.

I don't know. Users *always* fund development. When we buy products, some of that money funds development. Investors want a return on investment. They have no skin in the game like users do. I don't know if there are investors that would be willing to pony up the kind of money that would be necessary if the likelihood of success and substantial profit on that investment isn't guaranteed?

They need to develop it, and earn our business. That's just how I feel free enterprise should work. Otherwise customers will end up being exploited and taken advantage of sooner or later, that is human nature. The fair exchange happens when they produce something that is worth selling and sell it to us if we think its worth it.

Well... if they changed their model and tried to go with some sort of support plan... it would be up to those of us that are deeply invested in DP to decide if it's worth it. To me... let's say I had to pay $99/year... and this resulted in a noticeable improvement in the app as well as accelerated rate of addressing bugs. That would be worth it to me personally. Heck man... I WANT to use DP. If I could sit down and write a check right now for $99 or even $199 to have EUCON support improved (even if only plugin parameter mapping) and the hardware insert plugin fixed, I would do it in a heartbeat. Gladly.

But I also think DP could release paid updates more often than they have been. Yes they might have to acquire a few more developers and work on it more in order to do that, but then theoretically there could be more revenue from regular yearly upgrades. some of the ongoing momentum can come from user loyalty and perception that its being worked on, its developed, their needs are being met, etc..people will continue to sink their money in to that model and as revenue goes up, then MOTU can hire people and/or allocate developer resources to DP more and so on....

I think so, too. Of course it also means that people like me, desperate for long standing bug fixes know we have to wait longer because users will demand whiz bang new features that knock their socks off to be convinced to pay for that upgrade. Back to the analogy I made earlier about the house... I'm wishing the guest bathroom toilet would flush while there's a crew out back building a barbecue station on the back porch. When revenue is tied exclusively to new features, new features, new features... seems like the "mundane" things (aka maintenance) gets deferred. What good are new features if basic nuts and bolts things aren't working correctly?

Some of the things Mike pointed out about the interface are why many people seem to be turned off by Dp when they try it. Its often not immediately intuitive, giving people and instant feeling of being enabled to create. Instead it's a deep product that takes some time to get up to speed before you can accomplish anything. some very powerful features such as clippings window behavior as an example...mike gave an example of using clippings to store some track setups and i didn't;'t even know that was possible...and most people would never inuit that from the word "clippings". The use of the word "chunks" is equally confusing to most people out there that have no idea what it is. This to me says that usability factors were simply not given enough attention by true experts in that field. dp isn't terrible. Reaper is terrible regarding usability. logicPro wins that contest between the big ones... But anyway that is the kind of thing that will turn people away from a product very fast, regardless of the underlying power that is there if you take hte time to get used to it and learn it. take a look at the Reaper fans out there that think its the greatest thing ever due to a LOT of internal power, customizability and flexibility...but to this day i've never enjoyed my attempts to use it...its not intuitive and I can't be bothered with it. Some people feel that way about Dp to a lessor degree. If MOTU wants to gain market share...that would be an area to work on it. but the question is does motu even care about gaining market share on DP? I'm not sure they do. As long as they aren't losing money on it, I think they will tick away at it....make some improvements here and there, keep it going...but its all indications are that it will continue to change slowly for the foreseeable future...and in truth its hard for them to compete against Steinberg and Apple due to resources.

There's a lot there. I don't really know if it's possible to make software that is both immediately intuitive AND extremely powerful. I know nobody want's to have to look at manual anymore. For those that never want to look at one, maybe Garage Band is what they should stick with. I mean, how do you make something like "Adjust Beats" immediately intuitive? I've barely messed with Pro Tools but there are many things that aren't immediately intuitive. I've heard of the Elastic Audio feature... but I can tell you I don't know what it is, and there's not a chance in hell I'm gonna just figure it out by poking around and trial and error. At some point, I'm gonna have to search the manual or search YouTube.

It's funny, but I don't find DP very hard to grasp at all. But then when you come at it from the perspective of a different DAW it may seem that way. I'd hazard a guess that to make the most out of the deeper features of ANY PROFESSIONAL DAW, you're going to have to sit down and do the hard job of learning how certain things work. Goes against the instant gratification impulse out there today. Again... I see a bit of a contradiction. I want an enormously powerful tool that can do all sorts of cool things and produce great results, but I don't want to have to expend any effort learning to use it. That used to be called hiring a studio and paying an "engineer."

[James Steele]

A core beta tester told a few of us without possibly breaking his NDA that since he started testing around v1 even, MOTU have been constantly developing DP, and it hasn't slowed down at all.

I guess unless one is also a beta tester, one has no choice but to take that at face value. I'm sure it's been constant. But it may vary in speed. Or again... they may be moving along at a good clip on features that appeal to the greatest number of users and some things just have to keep being pushed off as a lower priority.

[James Steele]

The Webinars for one, it's been three years at least now, and it's still going strong. https://motu.com/en-us/products/software/dp/webinars/

Sounds like a vast treasure trove of information. I'm guessing they're on MOTU's YouTube channel? (Just kidding.). Don't mean to be snarky, but sure seems like if MOTU made these available somewhere after the webinar it would be nice. That way more than the 30 or so folks who were able to join the Zoom could benefit from these.

Whether you use it or not, DP having Clips puts it in a different category than Cubase, Reaper, Pro Tools etc. It helps it to compete against Logic and be a jumping up point from Bitwig or Live if you want better scoring tools etc. That move in DP11 said one thing clearly to me, MOTU are more than willing to work to keep DP alive.

I'm not doubting they're alive. They're moving in a direction that some people will like. It's not going to appeal or be needed by everyone. Hey... if they get around to fixing custom plugin parameter maps for EUCON control surfaces, I'll be very happy.

[Michael Canavan]

There's a lot there. I don't really know if it's possible to make software that is both immediately intuitive AND extremely powerful. I know nobody want's to have to look at manual anymore. For those that never want to look at one, maybe Garage Band is what they should stick with. I mean, how do you make something like "Adjust Beats" immediately intuitive? I've barely messed with Pro Tools but there are many things that aren't immediately intuitive. I've heard of the Elastic Audio feature... but I can tell you I don't know what it is, and there's not a chance in hell I'm gonna just figure it out by poking around and trial and error. At some point, I'm gonna have to search the manual or search YouTube.

It's funny, but I don't find DP very hard to grasp at all. But then when you come at it from the perspective of a different DAW it may seem that way. I'd hazard a guess that to make the most out of the deeper features of ANY PROFESSIONAL DAW, you're going to have to sit down and do the hard job of learning how certain things work. Goes against the instant gratification impulse out there today. Again... I see a bit of a contradiction. I want an enormously powerful tool that can do all sorts of cool things and produce great results, but I don't want to have to expend any effort learning to use it. That used to be called hiring a studio and paying an "engineer."

I just want to address this since it's quoting me and I think you might be missing my point a bit. Yes powerful DAWs will always have some parts you have to learn that are not intuitive.For instance with Commands, most of the single key commands are taken by Tools, and other things you might want quick access to. so we have some three key commands for things you really should know like Track Selection etc.

What I was talking about are things that are so far from even logical that they confound anyone coming from another DAW, or even people who have used DP for years. I used the settings for auditioning Soundbites and Content Browser audio because it's a great example of just terrible design. There is NOTHING that lets you know audio is going to playback in those windows, and there's no way from those windows to control the volume of playback. The volume fader for auditioning audio files is in the Preferences pop up window...

Some other just basic navigation features are not outlined very well either. It was literally last year that I realized that there was a command for selecting tracks (Shift Option up or down arrow), I didn't find it in the manual, and didn't find it in the Commands because the nomenclature is not what I would have thought, Move Selection up / down, instead of Select Next or previous Track. So most other DAWs use the up/down arrows to select the track, maybe auto arm it as well. DP only arms the track, the selection remains whatever was last selected. To me this is just basic stuff that it can take years to figure out in DP, because frankly I don't think anyone there has looked at where the rest of DAW universe is and thought "how could this make more sense to users coming from other DAWs?" or really just be better UX? I get the Tracks Window is an overview, but the fact that you can't extend the looped Clip from the Tracks window is just..

Obviously you can do this to many DAWs for sure, but DP is guilty of some pretty blatant UX violations, this isn't about not ever reading the manual, it's about things just not really thought out in an ergonomic way. It's not as obviously designed by programmers who aren't UX people as Reaper is, or as certain parts of Logic are, (Logic definitely is schizophrenic in terms of UX, with well thought out and just dog meat areas), but I would say with only using Cubase, Studio One, and Pro Tools for instance very infrequently, that they suffer less in these areas.

Did I mention the Content Browser and what a mess that is? I really hope that's on their agenda for 12.

[James Steele]

Well that might explain it. I never bother with the Content Browser. I went years and years without it.

Hey... I'm just a guy who wants to do 3 to 4 minute hard rock type songs. My needs in many ways are basic. Like I mentioned ad nauseum... I'd just like the EUCON support and the hardware insert plugin to work better.

[Michael Canavan]

Well that might explain it. I never bother with the Content Browser. I went years and years without it.

Hey... I'm just a guy who wants to do 3 to 4 minute hard rock type songs. My needs in many ways are basic. Like I mentioned ad nauseum... I'd just like the EUCON support and the hardware insert plugin to work better.

Don't leave out the fact they should have a hardware instrument plugin as well. If they're going to fix the insert plugin give us an advanced hardware instrument plugin that makes the others look lazy.

(the other DAWs all ignore patch change messages in the hardware instrument plugin, which is just a huge What the heck?)

They IMO should have had perfect Eucon support decades ago. They were the front end for Pro Tools for years on end, and still IMO are the best choice for a recording studio instead of Pro Tools.

I think we've talked about this before, DP is behind with native plugin parameter mapping. It might be why they aren't great with the Eucon? Other DAWs can store parameters in a user defined order so control surfaces with knobs and sliders can grab them automatically. So it's likely Eucon is just accessing that function in Pro Tools and Logic etc.

[James Steele]

I think we've talked about this before, DP is behind with native plugin parameter mapping. It might be why they aren't great with the Eucon? Other DAWs can store parameters in a user defined order so control surfaces with knobs and sliders can grab them automatically. So it's likely Eucon is just accessing that function in Pro Tools and Logic etc.

It's the custom parameter maps which is a feature of EuControl where there are issues. If you don't try to create a custom parameter map, but just let the plugin generically report all the parameters to the control surface it works just fine. I can't describe it. Some day I'll have to make a video demonstrating it. But if you are using Avid Control on an iPad (or tablet), you can drag various parameters of a plugin from a "pool" of all the parameters and decide just which parameters you will see and what order any time you use the control surface to edit that plugin. Since I have an S3 in addition to using Avid control, i can set them up twice. One way for how they will appear on the S3's encoders and another way for the Avid Control app.

[dewdman42]

There's a lot there. I don't really know if it's possible to make software that is both immediately intuitive AND extremely powerful.

I hear what you're saying and I wasn't meaning to say that every single feature needs to be immediately intuitive to the point of never needing a manual. It goes without saying that in any daw, including the ever-intuitive Logicpro, that complex features will require some learning. And I do agree with you that at times it can be difficult to balance the difference between power and easy-to-get-started. But it's very possible. LogicPro is a great example. Apple is genius in this regard and their changes to it after acquiring emagic showcase this perfectly.

But actually I'm more like you, I don't need or want them to waste too much time on the DP Gui, I have other things in mind I'd rather see them improve or fix. But those fixes will not gain much market share revenue honestly. It will just be improving things that should have been done differently to begin with. its like deferred maintenance on your house and fixing it doesn't raise the value.

Presonus is using the so called support plan now too. You pay $150, it's good for a year of updates and after that you have perpetual use of whatever you have until you pay $150 again later to start another year of updates. it's interesting. They are trying different things because $150 a year regular paid updates must have not been working out very well. Hard to say. At least with that model you can wait until you see them do something you want and are willing to pay for, then you give them your money for a year. Seems fair to me. Keeps them motivated to keep putting out updates that users will find valuable enough to pay for, and more often then every 3 years. So you might spend $450 in 3 years or you might not. They have to keep bringing value to get it. And in many cases, if they do, they will get it. If they don't they won't get it. Seems fair.

the company that drives me absolutely bonkers is Waves. I am erradicating waves plugins from my usage pattern just because of their insane revenue for nothing scam. FWIW

[Michael Canavan]

I think we've talked about this before, DP is behind with native plugin parameter mapping. It might be why they aren't great with the Eucon? Other DAWs can store parameters in a user defined order so control surfaces with knobs and sliders can grab them automatically. So it's likely Eucon is just accessing that function in Pro Tools and Logic etc.

It's the custom parameter maps which is a feature of EuControl where there are issues. If you don't try to create a custom parameter map, but just let the plugin generically report all the parameters to the control surface it works just fine. I can't describe it. Some day I'll have to make a video demonstrating it. But if you are using Avid Control on an iPad (or tablet), you can drag various parameters of a plugin from a "pool" of all the parameters and decide just which parameters you will see and what order any time you use the control surface to edit that plugin. Since I have an S3 in addition to using Avid control, i can set them up twice. One way for how they will appear on the S3's encoders and another way for the Avid Control app.

No I get it, it's just that DP itself doesn't have that sort of feature. DAWs like Logic and Bitwig can do this Eucon thing with any control surface, maybe not the two controllers different setup part, but the rest they do natively. With Bitwig for instance I can set up any plugin with the Komplete Control s88 and it will recall the 8 parameters every time I pul up the plugin. Mind you this is without the Komplete Kontrol plugin, it's just tapping into the hardware and posting the parameter names etc.

My reasoning is DP doesn't have any code to grab ahold of to say where a parameter is, these other DAWs do, so when the Eucon asks where the cutoff filter is, and what it's setting is, DP doesn't have any code internally to send back. Logic does, it can internally setup parameters in a specific order so it can talk to the Eucon fader or knob and send it the information.

[James Steele]

Obviously I haven’t explained it properly and need to make a video show how this is set up.

[HobbyCore]

I think we've talked about this before, DP is behind with native plugin parameter mapping. It might be why they aren't great with the Eucon? Other DAWs can store parameters in a user defined order so control surfaces with knobs and sliders can grab them automatically. So it's likely Eucon is just accessing that function in Pro Tools and Logic etc.

It's the custom parameter maps which is a feature of EuControl where there are issues. If you don't try to create a custom parameter map, but just let the plugin generically report all the parameters to the control surface it works just fine. I can't describe it. Some day I'll have to make a video demonstrating it. But if you are using Avid Control on an iPad (or tablet), you can drag various parameters of a plugin from a "pool" of all the parameters and decide just which parameters you will see and what order any time you use the control surface to edit that plugin. Since I have an S3 in addition to using Avid control, i can set them up twice. One way for how they will appear on the S3's encoders and another way for the Avid Control app.

No I get it, it's just that DP itself doesn't have that sort of feature. DAWs like Logic and Bitwig can do this Eucon thing with any control surface, maybe not the two controllers different setup part, but the rest they do natively. With Bitwig for instance I can set up any plugin with the Komplete Control s88 and it will recall the 8 parameters every time I pul up the plugin. Mind you this is without the Komplete Kontrol plugin, it's just tapping into the hardware and posting the parameter names etc.

My reasoning is DP doesn't have any code to grab ahold of to say where a parameter is, these other DAWs do, so when the Eucon asks where the cutoff filter is, and what it's setting is, DP doesn't have any code internally to send back. Logic does, it can internally setup parameters in a specific order so it can talk to the Eucon fader or knob and send it the information.

DP does have this, it was at least one point accessible with mackie control (I have not used one in years to confirm if that was broken).

[Michael Canavan]

DP does have this, it was at least one point accessible with mackie control (I have not used one in years to confirm if that was broken).

What I'm talking about is other DAWs ability to let a control surface like Mackie Control re-order the parameters that are addressable. Mackie Control could publish them but it was first come first served, so maybe useful parameters for instant mapping would be buried.

DAWs like Bitwig, Ableton Live and to an extent Logic can allow you the end user to choose the 8-16-32 etc. parameters that are published to your knobs and sliders. You can set up your most used parameters to always be mapped to your control surfaces every time you open that plugin. DP has nothing internally like that, so I suspected that James was having issues because the Eucon couldn't "see"the plugin order it wanted etc.